Forgotten Word Ministries Blog

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

RE: Larry King Interview with Joel Osteen

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Whatever ... WHEREever it is, it is a place of peace and joy. And, whether YOU plan to go there or not isn't important to me (thank you for telling me that my salvation is not important to you. Your salvation is important to me. )

YOU need to learn to read better ... I SAID WHETHER YOU PLAN ... isn't important to me. Not whether you're saved! Your plans mean nothing to me any more than they mean to Jesus, Himself because HIS WILL will be accomplished. I like the old joke, want to hear God laugh? Tell him your plans.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus does not change.

Yep ... Jesus does NOT change. So ... since He wore sandals and a robe, where are yours??? Jesus does NOT change, so ... when was the last time you entered a Synagogue??? Jesus does NOT change, so .. WHAT ARE YOU DOING SOMEWHERE BESIDES ISRAEL????

YOU don't go to synagogue because THINGS CHANGED AFTER CHRIST'S RESURRECTION.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

... remember when Jesus was on the cross, he told the thief, "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"? You need to read the scripture as they are with the correct punctuation. The correct punctuation for this scripture is...Luk 23:43

YOU need to study your history of the Bible a little better ... the punctuation in the King James Bible was inserted by the translators. Period. (Pun intended!) Commas and other "fine-point" punctuation was not in usage at the time the Scriptures were completed.

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

The "No Man" quote you use was spoken by Jesus AGAIN before His death and resurrection. Things changed after Christ conquered death! Heb 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus does not change.

THAT is when the holding place called Abraham's Bosom was opened and the believing souls entered Heaven Will you please show me the scriptures to back up what you are saying here? I can't find it in the bible where Abraham's Bosom is a hold room, or where any beliving souls entered heaven? Where is it???

... remember when Jesus was on the cross, he told the thief, "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"? You need to read the scripture as they are with the correct punctuation. The correct punctuation for this scripture is...Luk 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. The bible can not say one thing in one place and another thing in another place and have any credibility. The bible does not contradict itself. Man's translation of the bible is where the contradictions come from. If the bible appears to be saying one thing one place and appears to say something opposite that in another place, then the problem is in the translation, because the bible does not contradict itself. Jesus Christ would not say in one scripture that no one has assended into heaven except the Son of Man Who came down from heaven, and turn around and say in another scripture that this man is going to heaven or paradise or whatever you want to call it today. The bible would not have any credibility at all. Besides, Jesus didn't assend into heaven until the forth day after His crucifixion, so the man on the cross could not have been with Him in paradise that day, because Jesus did not assend to his Father until some time on the 1st day of the week. How are you going to explain that one? He was crucified on Wednesday and was laid in the tome just before sundown. He was in the tome Wednesday night, all day Thursday, Thursday night, all day Friday, Friday night, and was resurrected just before sundown Saturday. Three days and three nights. He told Mary not to touch Him Sunday morning because He had not assended to His Father yet. You just made Him a liar again, because you say that He told the man on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day?????. You have to be very careful with the bible and make sure you understand what it is saying, and not let some human translation of the scriptures lie to you. There are so many corrupt and terrible translations of the bible out there because carnal man wants to push his own agenda. I could give you the name of a bible that you can get at amazon.com, that is translated properly and faithfully without any agendas, but I don't think you would believe me if I told you. You seem to be determined to cling to the carnal misinterpretations you have of what the bible says. You don't appear to believe in the resurrections, because you say that when you die, you are going to be with the Lord. When we die, we go to Hades, the grave and await the resurrection, because that is what the bible says. I'm not saying that, the bible says that! We pray that our resurrection will be the 1st resurrection, but if not the 2nd resurrection, becuase we sure don't want to be in the 3rd resurrection.

Paradise may be another name for Abraham's Bosom (the holding place) but in I Cor. 12:4 and Revelation 2:7 it's another name for Heaven "I know this man ... was caught up to Paradise."

Whatever ... WHEREever it is, it is a place of peace and joy. And, whether YOU plan to go there or not isn't important to me (thank you for telling me that my salvation is not important to you. Your salvation is important to me. ) because when I die, I AM GOING TO BE WITH MY LORD as Paul said, "For me to die is gain."

You say you aren't a JW but your explanation of Hell comes straight from the JW handbook. Maybe they got it out of the bible???? Yes. The original word GEHENNA meant the place of burning for trash outside Jerusalem. But reason dictates that the use of that term for a place of eternal torment is easy to understand Again, you must be careful with your reasoning. That is what got us into all this trouble in the first place. Eve reasoned that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was good for food. Even tho God had instructed then not to eat of it, their reasoning got them into trouble, and that is what is wrong with the religions of the world today, is that they use their own reasoning instead of listening to what God is telling them.

and the New Testament talks about "outer darkness where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Sounds like torment to me. Just what do you think is going to happen to a body that is thrown into a Lake of Fire? It is going to burn up. The bible speaks of the smoke of those destroyed in the lake of fire assending up for ever and ever.

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Of course they were tormented when they realized they were about to be thrown into the lake of fire to be burned up. That would surely give me torment, great torment!!!!!Mal 4:3

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

No. Lazarus did not go immediately to heaven because this happened before heaven was opened by the death of Jesus and His resurrection.

Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom," a place of rest for the Old Covenant followers of God. I've heard it described as a "waiting room" for those who died believing but still under the Old Covenant.

Now, I know we could go back and forth about this forever, but Abraham's Bosom is NOT the current Heaven ... it was a place of waiting that was emptied out after the death of Jesus.

It doesn't say anything about the rich man being resurrected. It says he died and was buried AND IN HELL ... he was in hell and he saw, thirsted, begged, remembered, etc. He wasn't immediately burned up, he had time to experience torment. So that negates your idea of Gehenna being a place where unbelieving souls are "burned up".

The "No Man" quote you use was spoken by Jesus AGAIN before His death and resurrection. Things changed after Christ conquered death! THAT is when the holding place called Abraham's Bosom was opened and the believing souls entered Heaven ... remember when Jesus was on the cross, he told the thief, "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE"? Paradise may be another name for Abraham's Bosom (the holding place) but in I Cor. 12:4 and Revelation 2:7 it's another name for Heaven "I know this man ... was caught up to Paradise."

Whatever ... WHEREever it is, it is a place of peace and joy. And, whether YOU plan to go there or not isn't important to me because when I die, I AM GOING TO BE WITH MY LORD as Paul said, "For me to die is gain."

You say you aren't a JW but your explanation of Hell comes straight from the JW handbook. Yes. The original word GEHENNA meant the place of burning for trash outside Jerusalem. But reason dictates that the use of that term for a place of eternal torment is easy to understand and the New Testament talks about "outer darkness where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Sounds like torment to me.

Hades also can be translated as "The Grave."

AS for using a Scripture to explain WHY your explanations of Scripture and right and EVERY MAJOR BIBLE SCHOLAR OVER THE CENTURIES WAS WRONG ... don't you think that's a little ... uuuuuummmmmm .... never mind I think you get my drift.

The Scriptures say that "unless one repent and obey God ..." But I just can't wrap my head around the idea that YOU and the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only folks on earth to ever repent and obey properly!

Do you attend church (home or otherwise?) Do you have Spiritual Pastor(s) who help you discern truth from error? A single person without others to act as a sounding board is in a dangerous place. It's easy to make a single misstep that can lead you into grave error.

Just pray about what I've said here and ask God to guide you. I'm concerned about you.

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

Thank you for your reply. I don't think of myself as teaching things from one religion or another, I teach from the bible. God hates religion, and I am not a Jehovah's Witness and I don't know what they teach. The King James version of the bible, is the one I am referencing in this study. God's word is the foundation of knowledge.
Pro 1:7

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. There is only one way to understand the bible. "Obey the voice of God". Unless one repent and obey God, God will not show that person the mysteries of the bible. But if that person repents and begins to obey God, then his mind may be openned and he can understand the wonderful mysteries of God and what he promises to us.2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. The world has such a limited view of what God has offered to us if we will obey Him, because the world does not obey God, therefore they can not rightly divide the word of God, thus therefore they can not understand, and they continue in their sins.Now lets take a look at Luke 16. The bible interprets itself. It needs no help from us if we are obeying God, we can rightly divide the word of God. The world does not obey and they twist and turn the word of God to prove their own agendas. They began with a closed mind, so there is no room or way for God to enter in and open their mind. They want to do it their way, even when the word of God says do it this way, they will not. You said that the example of Lazarus and the rich man is an account. If it is, then Lazarus and Abraham have already gone to heaven, and the bible clearly states that no one has gone to heaven except he who came down from heaven, therefore you make Jesus a liar, and we don't want to do that do we.Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. So what does this example of Lazarus and the rich man mean. If Lazarus is not in heaven, what does this mean. Let's go through it and see.Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Here is where people get into trouble. They assume that because it says that the beggar was carried into Abraham's bosom that as soon as he died, he went to heaven. What did Jesus say???? Notice that the rich man died also and was buried. He went to hell, the grave, the same place Lazarus went, both to await their resurrection.

Luk 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. When the rich man was resurrected, he saw Lazarus with Abraham and he also saw the flames of the Lake of Fire. The word hell here is the Greek word Hades meaning "grave", so he couldn't have been in the flames just yet.

Luk 16:24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. The rich man beame a beggar, did he not?

Luk 16:25

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, thatwould comefrom thence. Here is where they read but do not understand, they hear but do not percieve. The world does not understand this part because they try to interpret the bible themselves instead of letting the bible interpret itself. Remember Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In Luke 16:26 they do not understand that this is showing a great gulf between Lazarus and the rich man, and that great gulf is more than 1000 years from Lazarus resurrection, the 1st resurrection when Christ returned to this earth to reign, and the resurrection of the rich man. Lazarus had already been given his new body, a spirit body. The rich man is risen again to his physical body. He can't go where Lazarus is, because he is physical and is about to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and burned up.Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
These five brethren would have been long dead, but he doesn't know that because he has been dead over 1000 years.

Luk 16:29

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Abraham tells him here that we have the bible, Moses and the Prophets, the word of God to teach us. But the rich man knows that they will not heed the word of God. They twist it and turn it into licentiousness, they keep not the law of God, they keep their own traditions.

Mat 15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me withtheirlips; but their heart is far from me.Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Luk 16:30Luk 16:30

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Send one from the dead to them and they will believe....wrong!

Luk 16:31

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. One was sent to them that was raised from the dead. Did they believe Him?? No. Do they obey what Jesus said? No. Do they keep His commandments?? No. They keep Sunday instead of the Sabbath that God ordained. They keep their own holidays such as Christmas, New Years, Easter, Valentines, and Halloween instead of God's Holy Days, which picture God's plan of salvation. God has given us everything and we have trampled it in the dirt. Why do you think this nation is in the situation it is in today? We have rejected God. We kill our babies in the womb. We have kicked God out of our schools, government and churches. Churches don't even resemble anything that would pass for worshiping the true God. We add to His Holy word and expect God to accept it because that is the way we want to worship.

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Can you get three (3) days and three (3) nights from "Good Friday" to Sunday morning???? No. We don't pay attention to what God says. The only sign Jesus gave as His Mesiahship, and we twist it into two nights and one day.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
There verses are not even in the original Greek text. Because we want to move forward our own agenda, we add then to God's word and expect Him to accept it. Not hardly. The true word of God does not teach a trinity. There are presently two beings in the God family. God the Father and Jesus the Christ. Do you want to make God a liar. For it is written that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. That would make the Holy Spirit the father of Jesus instead of God the Father would it not???? The Holy Spirit is the mighty power of God. In the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts it is neuter gender.

You have lessened Jesus Christ by adding to and taking away from His word. You make Him part of a trinity when He is not. God is creating a spiritual family here with us. We were created in His image, to be like Him when the process is complete. The world has reshaped God and His laws to fit their desires. They don't want God telling them what to do and how to do it. They want to do things their way. That's not good enough. We must obey what God says and do it God's way.

Act 12:4

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. We even insert pagan beliefs into God word. This is pure blasphemy. The original Greek text does not say Easter. It says Passover, the most important act God every did for us and we corrupt that too.

We even insert pagan beliefs into God word. This is pure blasphemy. The original Greek text does not say Easter. It says Passover, the most important act God every did for us and we corrupt that too.

I am truly a sinner and not even worthy to speak of God. But because God gave His only begotten Son to die and pay the penalty of death, and Jesus was willing to go through that for us, thus destroying the curse of the law, not the law, but the curse of the law which was the death penalty, I can now come directly before God and repent of my sins and ask His forgiveness and be forgiven and have the opportunity for eternal life within the God Family.

There is a lot of meat here if you have ears to hear and eyes to see and turn and be healed. I don't have any grand idea here of expecting to change your mind about what you believe, only God can do that. It just gives me the opportunity to study the word of God and give an answer.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

P. S. I don't disagree that the New Jerusalem will come to this earth.

Have a good day!

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

As a student of different religions I recognize your teachings as coming from the Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not saying you ARE a JW ... I'm simply saying that your teachings come from them.
Jesus taught about Hell as a place where people are alive, conscious, and have all their senses ... read the account in Luke 16 ... this is NOT a parable it is an account.
And Revelation clearly states that the "NEW JERUSALEM" (which is where God has his throne according to Hebrews) comes down to earth.
Heaven ... and Hell ... are real places and believers are given everlasting life to dwell with God and unbelievers are given a time of conscious torment in Hell.
IF you have been studying the Bible with the JW, please be very aware of what they teach concerning Jesus.
They have their own translation of the Bible called the "New World Translation" and in that translation (In St. John, ch. 1) their translation says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god." In other words, Jesus is a "secondary god" on a level with other creations of Jehovah God ... but in the original translations of that and many other scriptures it is made clear that Jesus is a third part of a trinitarian God. Jesus is just as much God as JHVH and should not be lessened in this way.

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

Victorious,

Your comments were neither offensive or an intrusion. I appreciate that you took the time to comment on what I was discussing. Did you see my reply? I don't mean to be offensive or intrusive either, I just like studying the bible. Very interesting book that takes a lot of practive to know it. Have to be very careful with it though, we have usually been told things about it from our childhood that are just not true. People grow up in one religion or another and they want to believe that way, and it is harder sometimes to unlearn a lie than it is to learn the truth. I remember the first time I learned what the word "hell" meant in the Greek. It simply means "grave" in most cases. The Greek word "Hades" simply means grave. Now "Gehenna" translated into the word "hell" was used to denote the "Lake of Fire" where the Beast and the False Prophet will be destroyed and all those who reject God. They will be destroyed, not tortured forever as I was taught as a young man, another lie I had to unlearn.

Anyway, thanks for your comments.
Wyle

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

God, Christ, was with men on this earth for several years. Were those with Christ, His deciples, in heaven???

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

I believe the Kingdom of God is where the true believers will be in the end, but saying that heaven is being with God is your interpretation. The bible does not say that.

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

The bible clearly states that all die, 1Co 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We will be made alive again, and it is my understanding that Enoch was translated so that he would not see death. Now if all die, Enoch had to have died. Because Enoch walked with God, there were some I believe that wanted to kill Enoch and God took him and placed him in another place. The same thing happens today when someone is threatened, the government can place them somewhere that they will be safe. The same with Elijah. We know this because three years later, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah.

2Ch 21:12

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

We must be careful not to read something into the bible that it does not say, and always pay close attention to what it does say. Elijah was taken up into heaven in a whirlwind. It doesn't say third heaven. We go to heaven every time we fly in an airplane. That is not the heaven where God the Father and Jesus Christ are. They are in the Third Heaven.

You don't refer to scripture and verse when you mention Paul going to heaven, which is very helpful when discussing the bible, but you may want to study that again. I don't think Paul has gone to heaven. David is still in his tome with us today. Also, the dead know nothing.Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Eternity is a long time.

According to the scriptures, at the end of the Tribulation (when the Antichrist rules on this earth, Christ will return "with the armies of heaven" and will overcome the AC. He will slay his enemies with the "sharp sword" (Revelation 19: 11-16) that comes from His mouth.
Then, in verse 17, an angel cries out to the birds, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals and mighty men, of horses and their riders and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great," then the beast (another name for the AC) and his false prophet are thrown into a fiery lake of sulfur and all their followers are slain by Christ.
The Bible goes on in the following final chapters to describe the binding of Satan and the ruling of Jesus' followers on earth for one thousand years ... but one thousand years isn't even a drop in the ocean of eternity ... so what happens to those believers AFTER the thousand years?
To make a long story short, after that, HEAVEN comes to earth ... literally ... the "New Jerusalem and the Holy City" (see Ch. 21) and a voice proclaims, "Now the dwelling of God is with men and he will live with them."

So, at the end of time, NO ONE really "goes to heaven" ... Heaven comes to us ... but IN THE MEANTIME, WHILE WE LIVE IN THIS IMPERFECT WORLD, trying to follow Jesus and living and dying with that great hope, we need to remember Jesus' words to His disciples, "Do not let your hearts be troubled,. Trust in God: trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I AM GOING THERE TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. I WILL COME BACK AND TAKE YOU TO BE WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM." (John 14: 1-4)

WE WILL BE WHERE JESUS IS ... AND THAT IS WHAT HEAVEN IS ... IT'S THE PRESENCE OF GOD ... REST ASSURED, HEAVEN IS THE BELIEVERS' FINAL DESTINATION. biggrin

Victorious · Active Member

Hello,
There is in the Bible two men whom have never died. One was named Enoch, and he was not, for God took him. Where, it must be heaven God's current abode. The other was Elijah the prophet. He was taken up to heaven on a chariot of fire in a whirlwind.

Then the Apostle Paul alludes to knowing a man (presumably himself, after he was stoned) that went up to the third heaven (God's abode), but, he came back. But, in another letter Paul stated that it was far better to be with Jesus, but, it was necessary that he return to help the churches that he had started.

These are the only others that come to mind that have anything to do with heaven. We (the Church, Believers) will go there, but only for a period of seven years, then we will return with Jesus and as you state rule and reign with Him for a thousand years because as the Bible states there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth. As you, can't see how people miss that part.

Hope this is not offensive, nor an intrusion.

-- Edited by Victorious on Tuesday 6th of April 2010 07:34:04 PM

Wyle · Great Friend of the Ministry

I just read the piece and interview on Joel Osteen and wondered if I could make an observation too? You talked a lot about Joel not knowing how to get to heaven or a lot about the bible for that matter. I have studied the bible and no where in it have I found anything about anyone other than Jesus Christ ever going to heaven. I was wondering which bible you study, because the one I study doesn't have that in it. If memory serves me correctly, the saints will rule with Christ on this earth for a thousand years. Where does it teach about going to heaven????