Furthermore, our church is run by 5 trustees. 3 of the trustees are the head pastor himself, his wife and his mother. 3 Persons who, coincidentially, were the receipient of personal blessings from the daughter purchased with the tainted money.
I was told by the head pastor that my removal as an associate was as a result of the majority vote of the board of trustees!
If everything you've told us in your post is the straight-out truth, I not only think you do NOT have to repent I think your PASTOR should repent! In fact, I believe that if he does not restore you to your former post and apologize YOU need to find a different church! I say this because it is the PASTOR's job to guard and protect his flock from predators (whoever those predators are) ... and YOU were hung out to dry. HE never gave you a chance to "butt out OR lose your place" he just BAM! On top of that, if it WAS the "blessings" given to the church through this elder abuse that stopped him from interceding, he is obviously more interested in remuneration than in redemption. IF you remain in this church, knowing that he will side with ANYONE who "blesses" him, YOU are not being a good "shepherd" to your family. Paul said you are to love your wife as Christ loved the church ... would he allow his church to live in fear of dangerous, unpredictable attacks without moving to protect her? NO. And you cannot allow your wife (and family) to live that way either. Seek peace, but not at the price of your peace, joy and safety. Leave if you must ... there are other branches of the body of Christ near you. Don't be intimidated because what you have described is commonly called "religious abuse" and is more common that you know. Check it out ... Google "Relgious abuse" ... it might even help you make up your mind as to whether or not you WERE abused. I will be praying for you that God will give you wisdom.
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
I am a lawyer (and an associate pastor in the church) and an elderly lady in church sought my assistance.
Someone came to her house and took photos of the exterior of the house telling her that it is in foreclosure. She did not have a loan on her house. I investigated and learned that her daughter took advantage of her frailness and mortgaged the place and took $230K by making her sign documents she did not understand.
(I never bill anyone in our church for any legal services I provide.)
I approached the daughter and she told me that she wanted to seek the advice of our head pastor. I wrote down my findings and presented them to the head pastor as well.
He rebuked me by telling me that the church does not take a position in issues not involving the church and for me to butt out.
I informed the elderly lady of that fact and did butt out as ordered. However, her son informed the State Adult Protection Services who initiated an investigation.
The elderly lady then called me to tell me to "call the whole thing off". (I presume because of the investigation being conducted by the Adult Protection Services and the daughter manipulating her mother crying about the big trouble she is in).
From there, the elderly lady started calling my house harassing me and my family.
Then, in church during services, she stands up and publically yells at me to LEAVE HER DAUGHTER ALONE!, disrupting the service. This was witnessed by the head pastor who did nothing about it.
As the head pastor told me that he does not take a position not involving the church, and believing that this harassment will continue, with much prayer, I filed a restraining order against the elderly lady. I could not perform at my best as an associate pastor not knowing when and where this elderly lady would have another outburst.
As punishment for that, the head pastor removed me from my position as an associate pastor.
He then brought both parties together and in that discussion, it was found that she mistakenly believed that I was behind the attack on her daughter by the Adult Protection Services. Recently, she and her daughter learned that it was not me, but her son instead.
From there, I believed that because she now knows that I am not the one attacking her daughter and thus, she will no longer attack me. So I went to court to dismiss the Restraining Order.
Nevertheless, I have not been restored as an associate pastor.
Later, I learned that the daughter used some of this money to "bless" the church with a transport van, expensive equipment used to improve our facilities, personal "blessings" for the head pastor and his family etc. which is perhaps the reason why the head pastor could not rebuke the daughter for what she had done to her mother.
QUESTIONS:
1. 1 Corinthians 6 states that we need to bring any disputes to the church, but the head pastor refused to hear the issue. In fact, when my wife asked him who will protect her and our children from the phone harassment, if we dismiss the restraining order, he answered "no one, just pray". Given that, is it permissible to have filed a restraining order to stop the harassment since the church will not take action to stop harassment by one Christian to another that occurs during church services?
2. How could the head pastor even rebuke or admonish the daughter, seeing that the church and he personally were the receipients of blessings bought by this tainted money?
What I find strange is when people pull out the Christianity to use is as a shield of protection.
What some do not remember is we, as Christians, are accountable to both Man's law and God's law. While God's law can supersede the spiritual aspect of your situation, the fellow is answerable for man's law.
I have a few unsaved friends that will sometimes try to use scriptures to benefit their position in the business world without regard to accountability.
Each time, I have to laugh at them because the logic (or lack thereof) will sometimes floor you.
Turning it over to collections is a very wise move because if the other guy tries to "guilt" you into releasing him from his debts, then you can tell him that it is no longer in your hands.
Thank you for your response, Roughneck, and welcome to the Board. I have decided to turn him over to a collection agency and let them decide whether or not to sue him. This guy will not submit to any spiritual authority. Your advice goes hand in hand with Sojourner's advice, and I believe it to be biblically sound. I hope your time spent here posting benefits you and those who read what you have to say.
I wanted to get your opinions here. Is it ever okay for a Christian to sue another Christian? If so, under what circumstances? I have always operated under the assumption that it is never okay, and I'm really getting tired of fellow Christians or maybe "Christians" breaking the law and our written agreements, causing me to lose THOUSANDS of dollars. I have been finacially injured far more by those who profess faith in Christ than those who don't, and I seem to have no remedy since I cannot sue them and they won't submit to spiritual authority. My only remedy is that I will be blessed by God for doing His will and that can be far greater than anything I would have received from man, but MAN DO I WANT VENGENCE! It's really tough to have integrity when it seems like no one else seems to have it.
If you have a grievance, try to work it out with him first. If that fails, take your grievance to the leadership of his church (if you go to separate churches) and appeal to them. If that fails, then you can take him to court.
or
You can forgive him and elect to allow God to handle it. It is entirely up to you. If you do not have the strength to forgive or if he has done this to others and will likely continue to do so, I would take him to court.
I can only Imagine your anger. This is a hard trial you are facing, this is no normal run of the mill trial, take pleasure in the fact that God will deal with it and you will be bless for obeying Gods word, maybe God wants to see if you'll forgive them, and pray blessings on them, haha sorry it is no laughing matter, but HARD!! to do. One day maybe a year from now, this will not matter, and you will be glad to have not taken vengence.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Thats motivation enough to forgive, because one day wi'll all need it.
Randy, thank you so much for that. I've never thought of that passage in this context. It's brilliant. Also, I talked to a spiritual leader in my life today I thought he was going to tell me I was being greedy or too hung up on money, but it is his opinion that if you don't try to collect bad debts in your business, it is bad stewardship. I had never thought of it that way.
Matthew 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you,go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
This is your Christian remedy. If it gets to the point where the church has been involved and you still are taken advantage of, I'd say treat them as scripture says and sue.
Just curious, Have you discussed this with them in regards to what you belive a Christian be like as far as paying rent, owing back payments, etc. I know it is sometimes hard to discuss business with Scripture but I do and find that it at least eases my mind knowing I did what was right. I would say that after talking to them and explaining Scripture, I would inform them that they leave no choice but to have you evict them. If they are already gone from the premises and still owe, I would still have that talk and then tell them that you have no choice but to turn the account over to a collection agency that will unfortuneatly cause them to send more money. A collection agency charges you a fee but I have used them in the past when I rented a couple homes in Springfield Illinois and at least you get some of the money and you are not actually sueing them, you are just trying to collect only what is owed to you nad are willing to take less by paying a fee to the agency to do the paperwork for you. That may be a fine line so thin on it and pray. I would still keep it as nice and level headed as possible. If they are in a situation where they cannot get the money owed, then that is a different matter all together.
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
True. We have no right to judge a heart ... but when someone is obviously "taking advantage" of their status as your "brother in Christ" I believe that's another instance of taking the Lord's name in vain. "By their fruits ye shall know them" and Jesus said that the world would recognize Christians by the love they show each other. Even John in his epistles says that, "If a man says he loves God but he hates his brother ..." and, frankly, a refusal to repay an honest debt is NOT showing love. Sorry about the hastily worded response but I'm away from home and all my books.
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
In the latest instance, they are a young married couple and the husband's father is the pastor of the biggest church in town. The wife works full time at the church, and her father is the head of the local Focus on the Family Montana chapter. The husband is also involved in ministry in the church. I guess I go by the principle that if they portray themselves as Christians, I will treat them as such. I have to do this to avoid running around judging people's hearts and deciding for myself if they belong to God.
I agree ... Christians should never sue other christians ... BUT ... If these people are living in sin (lying, cheating, etc.) ... ARE they Christians?
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Saint, I agree you whole-heartedly! I have always lived under the rule that Christians are not to sue. But like you....boy do I want revenge or something! I am still owed thousands from a "shopper" newspaper I used to own. I sent out bills and late notices but when I sold the business I sold it with the recievables staying with me. I stll am looking for the money. I have talked to most of them by telephone and the ones who profess to be Christians, give me a bigger line than the others. Like you, I am assured my reward at a later date from a much more honest giver!
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
I wanted to get your opinions here. Is it ever okay for a Christian to sue another Christian? If so, under what circumstances? I have always operated under the assumption that it is never okay, and I'm really getting tired of fellow Christians or maybe "Christians" breaking the law and our written agreements, causing me to lose THOUSANDS of dollars. I have been finacially injured far more by those who profess faith in Christ than those who don't, and I seem to have no remedy since I cannot sue them and they won't submit to spiritual authority. My only remedy is that I will be blessed by God for doing His will and that can be far greater than anything I would have received from man, but MAN DO I WANT VENGENCE! It's really tough to have integrity when it seems like no one else seems to have it.
