Forgotten Word Ministries Blog

wordworker wrote:

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I'm not saint but I will reply to your challenge.
"Rules about eating ... destructive" you said.
ANYTHING that is attributed to God that He did not say is destructive to your soul (Remember "He that addeth one jot or tittle ...?)
Beyond that, as I've stated elsewhere, I believe that when Eve added the words, "Neither shall we touch it" to the command of God that they not eat of the tree of knowledge, the serpent wrapped himself right around that piece of fruit and, demonstrating that he didn't die, he looked her right in the eye and said, "Reeeaaaaaallllllyyyy?????"
"Healthy eating as a hobby" could easily be the way anorexics describe their behaviors as well.
God gave us teeth that are used to eat vegetables and He gave us teeth to eat meat.  The DANIEL diet ... that's where you eat nothing but fruits and vegetables?  Not Biblical for our times but the Hebrew children did that as a simple way to avoid non-kosher foods (if you remember, God SENT quail to the children in the wilderness and among his laws are descriptions of EDIBLE MEAT).  And God honored their refusal to eat non-kosher meat by keeping them healthy IN SPITE of what they were forced to eat.
Anyway ... my 2 cents.

-- Edited by wordworker at 10:29, 2008-04-02

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Exo 16:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exo 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God.

Exo 16:13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

Psa 106:14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert.

Psa 106:15 And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Psa 106:16 They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.

Psa 106:17 The earth opened and swallowed up Dathan, and covered the company of Abiram.

Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

God gave them quail because he got sick of hearing them murmuring, and also sent leanness to their soul(spiritual weakness) Iam not saying that eating meat is wrong, but your example of the children of israel eating meat just fell to the ground because they murmured and cried for meat, he answered their request.  That generation of murmurs and complainers ended up wondering in the wilderness 40 years(spiritual dryness), and I can draw a parallel here with this older generation, your generation will not see what the younger shall see sadly.  Your example of eve in the garden is a worn out arguement and hardly applies to my having a HOBBY for crying out loud, if the people of God want to remain in their unhealthy and/or obese status, have at it, enjoy filling your bellies, I hardly have anything against it, because I don't eat healthy like I should anyway, but to accuse me of false doctrine is truly laughable and just shows me how judgmental people in the church can still be.  Its funny you can say smoking is not a sin, yet eating healthy as a "HOBBY" a "HOBBY" are hobbies a sin in your church?  you might wanna pick one up to make you happy, I got one for you, exercise or is that occultic also?  Is this a jehovah's witness forum?

For those of you who believe the Jews drank alcoholic beverages mixed ith water etc, look back into the history of thier multiple captivities and you will find those other cultures holding them captive were the ones who influenced them to adopt such practices, it was not nor ever was God who taught, told or commanded them to do this.

Outside pagan -(Gentile) nations that took them captive had such practices and Jews slowly adopted such over the centuries of those captivities. Question that? Look at the problems God and Moses consistantly dealt with in the Jews during the Exodus out of Egypt.

Just because the Jews adopted some of those  pagan traditions does not mean getting them from the pagans was right. God corrected alot of them over and over with the Jews thru out the milleniums.

As for being a stumbling block, those who accept practices that clearly are detrimental to our physical bodies become the stumbling block doing such things in from of younger weaker Christians or those trying to get out of an addiction with it already.

And it is not those who claim people cannot be delivered from addictions without help, its admitting the Truth. Check out stories of te Old Test which prove how man of his own cannot accomplish anything without God.

There is no living human being having any "power" of thier own, but only abilities. They have the abilitiy to choose what to do, where to go, but its God or Satan who provides the power to accomplish it.

If the other were true, what need would we have to seek God for help?This is why I helped another bold Christian AA Leader to help bring AA Teachings and meetings in our State back to seeking God for help in overcoming addictive habits.

Speaking of stumbling blocks, what about the newer AA Teachings for clients to seek an "ultimate power" as in a tree, office building, truck or car, etc to be that? When the old original "Big Book" for AA was written by the author who testifys out right it was God, not a tree, building, truck or other who delivered him from alcohol addiction.

And people who want to sin and believe its ok, will come down on those who speak out against clear practices that only harm us and don't help at all, yet, they are claimed the stumbling blocks to others. Even tho in reality, its those who want to follow sinful practices that only harm us and back them with no physical evidence to prove thier stand, are the stumbling block.

Now, as to the note made of Eve carrying God's Command "not to eat" the forbidden fruit" or they will die to not touching it, remember this people-

God declares He can neither be touched nor tempted by sin. Notice the word "touched" used. So, Eve was not over extending what God Commanded of them. She understood the extent to which our being "created" in God's Image mean't.

God teaches us to think and operate in only those things which are pure, just, honorable, virtuous and more. (In other words those things which Glorify God), because we are God's Chosen people, His Children, of which we are to demonstrate by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, a "Christ-like" example to the unsaved, which extends to younger weaker Children of God as well.

Thus, is drinking alcohol which coats and distorts the operation of body cells, then also eventually kills them, or smoking which ruins our lungs really, honestly a good example to others to be doing?

Rather than retorting back and forth over these subjects, go to the web sites with the proven tested statistics in them showing the results good and bad of these two or any other questionable practices to see the weight of what if any good comes of thier use to the negative effects.

After that, then as BobW states, pray to God about them and see how God would have you consider them from there. It appears people will not listen to God's Word directly about it, so, take in the world's view from thier own testing which condemns thier practices as well as God's Word does.

The warnings we see on the packaging of these products are not there for the fun of it. Theres been enough deaths and other detrimental results recorded over time to warrant needing them on those packages.

And if like, concerning alcohol, I will supply a considerable list of people directly from God's Word who sinned against God by being involved in alcohol use. God's Children need to wake up and realize there is no true "wonder" why the world thinks Christians are nuts or Christianity a joke.

The "Body of Christ" has let themselves sucumb to the pressures of worldly thinking and operating to now believe many past sinful practices and thinking are now acceptable before God.

God Bless!!

Saint-
give me ONE example showing how eating healthy as a hobby, can be destructive?  Have you ever heard of the daniel diet?  God commanded his people to not eat certian things.  In the beginning, they ate only fruits and vegetables...haha.  I KNOW< I KNOW these laws do not pertain to us under grace, BUT BUT there is much wisdom in it, and we can learn a lot more than just about liberty and anti-legalism doctrine.

I have given biblical examples on dieting now the burden of proof is on you to prove to me that my hobby (or teaching) about eating right is DESTRUCTIVE?  Oh and jesus didn't free us from legalism, and give us liberty to simply do what we want with our bodies, no wonder the lord dosen't heal many with cancer today.  If someone knows and believes that smoking causes cancer then he'd better not expect to be healed.  Atleast I wouldn't have much faith for him.

Well, God teaches us several things-

Jesus taught its not what goes in the body that defiles it, but what comes out- (wrong thoughts that are spoken)- "Sermon on the Mount".

But, God teaches us thru the Apostles defiling of the Temple can result thru physical aspects as well, such as "fornication"- (sex outside of marriage). Then theres "unnatural acts- homosexual and lesbian, beastiality and more.

But God also teaches us while all things are allowable, not all things are beneficial or good for us.

The main point is God teaches us, to use His Word in discerning that which is individually acceptable. For instance-

Food- Food is fine, its necessarry. But some people over eat and become obese, which can kill them quicker taxing the heart trying to handle all that extra weight.

On the other hand, some force starve themselves- (anorexia).

But, in the case of things like sexual sin, smoking and alcohol, where are the benefits at all from any of these?

Alcohol slowly coats and kills body organ cells over time. Smoking coats the air sacs inside the lungs and causes oxygen depletion among other probems. Sexual sin brings about a whole variety of diseases you can catch to ill effect our bodies, not to mention enough of them that have no cure and only a few which can be controlled but nevr cured. Some eventually died from certain ones.

God is not just teaching us thru His Word just what sin is, but also how to avoid it. To learn how to discern what may be acceptable and not expedient- or beneficial for us, and what is out right detrimental to the body.

Fact is, God is trying to show us using His Word, we can learn what to avoid that will harm us, to, that which we need to contol individually, to that which we can go with but just won't be of any benefit good or bad.

Our "Body is the Temple of God", therefore, we must use good Godly sense in discerning such things, from what God declares.

Understand people, while no, we are no longer held under the "Law", we are still responcible to read an learn it to keep it hidden in our hearts, for Its profitable for proof and reproof of doctrine. It contains the "Armor of God" to stand against Satan's firey darts. Plus a whole lot more.

So, we cannot discount the Teachings of God's "Law", for Christ Himself tells us, he who follows Him, does what He declares, belongs to God. How did any of us get Saved and reborn? Grace cometh by faith, faith cometh by the hearing and hearing of the Word of God"

You heard part of the "Law" preached, which talks about what Christ did for all of us. Don't ever think we no longer need to pay attention to the rest of God's Word for living a life to grow in Him, once we are saved and reborn.

For how else will we realize not to do as those in Heb. 6:4-6 did and were lost to God, even after becoming saved and reborn?

We may not be held under the "Law" as Old Test followers, we are still responcible and have a duty and need respect for God to read and learn His Word to show ourselves approved in rightly dividing Truth.

Just because the word- "smoking" is not mentioned does not exclude it from being sin, if it is a form of destroying the body- "Temple" of God. Should we then reject God's Word since Its called the "Bible", when not found used by God in His Word?

God may speak of particular subjects called- "Concepts", but He always includes other Scriptures known as "Precepts" and "Principles" to support the "Concepts". Lets always consider all related Scriptures of a topic for understanding what God fully means for a Concept.

For those who want to be alone to discern thier own Truths of God's Word and not be preached to, what then of God's instituting the five fold major leadership over the "Body" listed as Apostles, Bishops, Pastors, Teachers, Deacons, etc for guiding the flock- "Body of Christ".

And above all else for this subject, God teaches us, as did Christ, to show due honor and respect for that leadership. To reject such is no different than Satan becoming prideful and thinking he wants to rule all things and not listen to He who created him as well, be it directly from God or thru lesser creatures God has guided to speak with us about such things.

All of you shared specific insights of God, but are only coming with those in particular to hold to your view, when all aspects are to be combined in reality for good Godly ommon sense thinking for an overall understanding of what God says about thi subject.

Oh, btw- God declared after the flood, man would be limited to an age of 120 years old also. While yes, documentations show aprox. 5 -6 people living up to 130-150 years, the majority don't live to 120.

Remember, God has always taught His Chilren to be in unity of teachings and beliefs. Lets get back to that and away from sticking with only that aspect we want to believe in or follow. We may be all seperate members, but still belong to the same body. How well do you think your arms or legs would work to move your body or do things, if they operated of thier own free will seperate from unified operating with the rest of the body? Not very good.

God Bless!!

God Bless!!

I think it far more harmful to teach younger and "weaker" brethren that they must put on the yoke of legalism to be accepted by us. They should understand that in Christ there is LIBERTY. That's what Christ taught, and my previous post was a great example of this. Also, you still have not acknowleged that the I Cor 6 passage is referring specifically to sexual immorality. I think it's my responsibility to teach and practice what the Word says rather than what our church culture says. Far be it from me to lay burdens on people that God does not.

One of the 10 commandments is "Remeber the Sabbath and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work." Between the time of Moses and Jesus, men added to this commandment so much that it became a burden to the people. Their hearts were right in the beginning, as they sought to answer the question, "what constitutes work?" In time their rules had become accepted as supreme Law. Jesus came along and bucked their system, directing people back to the original intent of the Law. They condemned the man that Jesus healed for taking up his bed and walking on the sabbath. They condemned Jesus for healing on the sabbath. They condemned Jesus and His disciples for picking fruit and eating it on the sabbath. This is what happens when man adds their own rules and their own culture to God's Word. It becomes burdensome and leads people away from God. So your "hobby" is destructive. Be very careful what you teach and profess the Bible to say. Jesus was pretty big on what it actually said and the spirit of what it said rather than the commonly accepted dogmas of the religious leaders of His time.

Chris, I think you should reread your posts and mine. I'm not the negative one. I'm not the angry one. My only point is that we should let the Bible say what it says, not let American church culture interpret it for us. You are correct in that there are plenty of guidelines the Bible lays out for us to follow. Worshipping our health is just not one of them. I pray that you get free of this false doctrine.

How does it feel to be so negative all the time? Do you smoke "Saint"????? you trip me out sometimes, haha, yes you make me mad sometimes and then I just laugh.....why don't you start your own church?  you seem to know it all, at least from a negative perspective, you seem like and angry man/woman whatever you are.  blaming the church for being legalistic.... im sorry to tell you, there are guidelines written in the bible that believers must live by, and if you don't you are only cheating yourself, but hey, you figure it out because I am afraid you would fight it all the way to heaven, if you make it.

Rev 3:3  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


He said I will not blot his name out if he overcomes, but if he doesn't.......hmmmm you figure it out.  Or do you believe in that eternal security crap.  Now thats a false doctrine I am ready to destroy right now starting with this verse, this was written to believers.
-- Edited by Chris at 21:52, 2008-03-31

-- Edited by Chris at 22:04, 2008-03-31

I guess for your sake saint, it is a good thing he was atleast specific about the whoring around part.

Iam not apart of any cult who says that eating this  is a sin and thats a sin, thats ridiculous.  Glutonny is a sin. But I have studied nutrition enough and know what is Good and bad for you, and dont need the lastest scientific study to prove it.  Im not tossed to and fro like you wondering if that is bad or not, I know, and particularly don't care to talk about it, because of people like you who only care about the present, and think your living it up by eating what you want.  Even in this christian walk there is a narrow way that leads to life. The road to true health is like walking a "narrow way"  metaphorically.  There is much wisdom in eating healthy not only for your sake but the sake of your children.  My grandfather smoked for 65 years dying at 82, and if he never picked up that habit we would still be enjoying his existance, but no, he's dead!  remember, your not only living forself, eat healthy for the sake of your children and grand children, and don't give me that, "if its my time to go eating healthy will not stop me."  that mentality is idiotic because it is possible to die before your time.  your remind me of a friend of mine that stuggles with his weight, now has diabeties, insomnia, always hurting, and still proclaims his gospel that,"God made me to enjoy food."  yes he did, but not the chemicals that society put in them.

Ecc 7:17  Be not over much wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time?

I mis-spoke, your right, Gluttony is what I ment.(I knew better)sorry.  My other point was, THAT if we are going to judge someone, and condemn them to hell for smoking, and preach hell fire and brimestone messages against them.   It is slightly hypocritical for us

I do not support smoking... I think it is a sick habbit and if one only understood how sick it was, they would stop doing such a nasty thing....For years i have heard that smoking and drinking is a sin, because it is destroying the TEMPLE, which i believe it does destroy the temple, but isn't it Ironic that the #1 killer is heart disease, and not lung cancer.... come on God your suppose to kill those bad smokers, not us good Christians... It is sad how we as a community of believers, and i am talking about us pentecostals, have shuned people because of smoking and we wisper behind peoples back and say stuff like, "Oh my God, look at that sinner." 

If you are a smoker and you are reading this and saying, "ah he just gave a free ride for the smokers." Nope not the least, because i still think it is destroying the temple, and once a new believer learns this and does not give it up, he/she will only climb so high in God and the deep things of God and of his spirit, you will not experience because you have allowed a fleshly habit control you.  the bible still says to lay aside the WIEGHTS and The SINS which doeth so easily beset us. 
If you think you can smoke and be a leader in the body of christ you are sadly mistaken because the majority of believers VIEW smoking as a "MOST HORRIBLE AND TERRIBLE" sin and that will hinder your witness to a lost world.  Remember part of being a christian is being an overcomer, and if you continue in this habit, you are neither overcoming nor growing in God. 

I dont think Obesity is a sin, it is actually a cellular problem and requiers some serious and consistent dieting, packed with nutrients and a life long dedication.....Truly hard stuff.  i hope to be able to do this one day.  I can write a book on this, because I have studies so much on nutrition.  The only way to truly overcome obesity is a total re-education on what is Good and bad to eat, its a paradigm shift that needs to take place in you mind and diet.  If your read enough material, it will encourage you, i once went 3 months on fruits and veggies and that was the best 3 months of my life, I lost 25 pounds, and had so much energy and vigor, but because of the culture we live in, and a certian friend pushing me to just try one Dr. pepper, UGH!  it was gooooooooood, haha, and I backslide from the health world, I will go back one day, you have to find friends with like passions on this subject too. anyway

"Yes. He quit when he entered the presence of Jesus!"   haha, I like that woodworker.  Everything fleshly quits when we get there.  I can't wait.

I don't think smoking is a sin because all kinds of people smoke even pastors smoke so they know the bible front to back. also the bible dosen't say not too so.

Some call smoking sin ... others call smoking dumb ... I call smoking a trap.
I know people ... good men and women of God ... who have struggled to get free of tobacco for many years.
My own father was one such man. He died before he was able to complete the fight ... but when people ask me, "Did he ever quit smoking?" First, I want to **smak** 'em because their self-righteousness is showing and second I say, "Yes. He quit when he entered the presence of Jesus!"

Saint- You only gave part of the scripture about tattoo's here is the entire verse from the KJV
Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, NOR print any marks upon you: I am the Lord    Man didn't say this God said this.

Marks-hebrew- qa aqa- an incision or gash. Tattoo's are an incision of ink into your body and that mark is with you forever until they come up with somehow to remove them. Would you feel comfortable standing in from of Jesus on judgement day full of tattoo's?

Next you talked about the liberty in serving Christ but don't forget
Matt 7:13  Enter ye in at the STRAIT gate: for Wide is the gate and BROAD is the way that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and MANY there be which go in thereat
vs 14 Because STRAIT is the gate and is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there that find it.
So not only is the gate to life narrow the way is narrow also and I am afraid alot of people live as if they are saved no matter how they live, they have a false sense of I am saved no matter what I do because I AM SAVED BY GRACE so don't put all that legalistic stuff on me.

Well, first of all, both alcohol and smoking can destroy the body. Who is out to destroy us and discredit God? Satan. Satan is the athor of death. Both smoking and drinking eventually lead to death if effect our bodies bad enough. Look at the statistics for alcohol and smoking related deaths.

Second- God is the author of life. Now, He would not have asked His children to avoid this, know ye not that your body is the Temple of God and not to defile the Temple, if doing such things He knows will eventually destroy it?

Third- Yes, the word "wine" is used thru out God's Word, but the original word for wine is "oinis"- which means- "fruit of the vine.and also wine. But lets stay in context to God-

While people tried to claim Jesus was a drunkard, wine bibber,etc, God's Word consistantly declares Christ was pure, undefiled, sinless.

Also, look at all the scriptures that speak against the use of alcohol, besides all the examples of what happened to people in God's Word who used it. The results were always negative.

Smoking coats the air sacs in the lungs and prevents them from proply removing oxygen from air to enter the blood stream for bodily cells to use. Infections can start from a foriegn body that can cause permanent levels of pneumonia, emphysema, plus other breathing related problems.

Smoking also causes "hardening of the arteries." This in essence, makes it harder for the muscles around our vascular system from being able to squeeze and release around them to keep blood flowing thru them.

Alcohol is made from a mixture of componets, that when consumed by a human body, leaves certain levels of some components behind which build up around cells preventing them from intaking and expelling needed good and bad products for expulsion from the body.

Also, the more alcohol you drink, the more alcohol tainted substances enter cells and distort thier operation, which distorts our bodies normal functions.

Alcohol also destroys liver and other organ cells over time.

thus, when God, thu Paul spoke of all things being acceptable but not expedient, that was not pertaining to substances to be taken in that would destroy our bodies, but things being acceptale, even if were not beneficial- (not harmful).

Some things we can eat may not do us any good, but not harm us either such as some types of man made foods- (artificial). Yet, some types of fluids, such as some pop may not harm us, tho its not beneficial to us either.

One thing to remember is, God's original diet for man from the beginning was naturally grown foods. Today, everything but natuaral foods we eat, say packaged, canned, etc, has been processed some how.

In this manner, man has found nutrients were removed that were good for us. but, by thier "adding" such things, look at what they added- (extracts of this or that), manmade vitamins etc are added.

Did you know, only about 30% of man made vitamins can be used by the body and 70% vof them are never used per dose intake? Where vitamins and minerals found in thier natural state in foods more than 80% is accepted into the body and only 20% removed?

In processed foods we eat, most of the time substances such as sweetners- (sugar) is not real sugar but an "extract" of sugar. Turns out, studies show, those "extracts" are totally worthless for our bodies use. Studies show, we are lucky if the body can use 10% of those "extracts" added.

But, eatan orange or a grapefruit, and the natural "sucrose"- (sugar) found in them is readily accepted by the body imediately and fully useful.

Salt is another. Processed salt we add to foods only about 28-34% of it is accepted by the body. But salt found naturally in foods is 85% or better accepted and used imediately by the body.

Salt and sugar are two of the main products our bodies need to help keep its natural balance. Salt is broken down by the body and used to remove particular inpurities thru our pore system. Sugar is used to keep our internal system balanced from getting diabetes of some type.

Not all natural foods are fully beneficial, but not harmful either when eaten correctly. But, man made substances such as cigarettes, alcohol and more are clearly detrimental, therefore outside the list acceptable before God to be consumed.

my thoughts anyhow.

Otherwise, here is some food for thought- What is there that can "defile the Temple of God" if not refering to alcohol, cigarettes, evil thinking we allow to linger, etc. ?

God Bless!!

What's with the Winston thing.  I do not smoke.
Anyway:
I would say this to that. :) You mentioned: Everything in your story Bob says that people were discouraged from following the Lord because they believed they could not overcome something in their life that they believed was a sin.
Of course they were discouraged bcause they believed they could not overcome something.  That is the crux of what I am saying.  At that particular point in their lives they were weak and searching and afraid and unsure.  They needed to be taught, talked to, shown that they could have faith to overcome something by way of the Lord.  Try to remember back before you were saved and see if you remember times when you had no faith in something or another.  Bet there were those times.  BUT, after you found the Lord, your confidence was so much stronger because you had faith in Him and confidence in Him to be able to help you.  You learned to lean on Him and His understanding.
I read Romans 14 and have to say that I may not agree with your assessment.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Smoking can be a stumbling block as testified by many.14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. We as Christians may not see somehing as unclean, butasthe Lord shows here, someone who does perceive something as uclean, to them it is unclean and if they see us partaking in that partcular thing, it gives them the impression ofus doing something unclean.  Unsaved people perceive a certain thing about Christians and we they see something like this the first thought is what a hypocrite.15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. This actually tells us that we shoud be willing to sacrifice eating meatin front of someone who thinks it bad.  Small price to pay to keep from cretin a stumbling lock isnt it.  Why are we all so selfish and only concerned wtth ourselves and our wants and wishes isntead of thinking first about the Kingdom of Christ.16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.  Hard to edify smeone when we ar doing something that may be causing them to doubt.20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.  Again, He is making it clear that we are not to do those things which may cause someone to falter in their search for Him.
Matthew Henry puts it this way:Consider the design of Christ's death: also that drawing a soul to sin, threatens the destruction of that soul. Did Christ deny himself for our brethren, so as to die for them, and shall not we deny ourselves for them, so as to keep from any indulgence? We cannot hinder ungoverned tongues from speaking evil; but we must not give them any occasion. We must deny ourselves in many cases what we may lawfully do, when our doing it may hurt our good name. Our good often comes to be evil spoken of, because we use lawful things in an uncharitable and selfish manner.
In closing, I would say  this.  I am far far from perfect and have so many faults that only my compassionate Lord and Savior can count them, but I believe and am trying each day to be more and more the person who is willing to look past myself and towards others.  That I will become more and more like the good Samaritan and not the hypocrite who just walks on by without trying to help.  I wish to become more willing to give of myself in all ways for the work of the Lord.  As Wordworker knows, I try hard to give unto others without thought of myself.  I am a long way from getting there but I am working towards it.   God Bless

-- Edited by bobw at 20:27, 2008-01-10

-- Edited by bobw at 20:29, 2008-01-10

-- Edited by bobw at 20:30, 2008-01-10

-- Edited by bobw at 20:31, 2008-01-10

-- Edited by bobw at 20:34, 2008-01-10

U suppose we have come o that point in discussion where they say, "I guess we will just have to agree to disagree".  The following story is from a Pastor who tells it better than I could.  I continue to believe that smoking is a stumbling block to others and am beginning to convince myself through Scripture and listening to the Holy Spirit that it just may be a sin.  I c ontinue to pray about that part of it.

  ALL THINGS ARE NOT EXPEDIENT

          In verse 12 of this passage Paul says, "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." Here Paul makes a transition to another related subject. Earlier Paul had admonished them for specific sinful acts. Now he addresses even the matter of over indulgences. Even if smoking was not a sin, and clearly it is, it certainly falls under the heading of not being expedient. Paul explains that there are things that within themselves are not sinful, but they can lead to sin. That is what is meant by saying some things were not "expedient." Here God is placing a limitation on our indulgences. For example: It is not sinful to fish, hunt, sew, collect things, etc. Yet, if these things become an obsession and begin to control us then they become sinful. If I let my desire to fish keep me from my service to the Lord it would be sinful. If I took my tithes and offering which I should give to the Lord and spend them on my hobby it would be a sin. If my hobby hurt my testimony it would be a sin. These things within themselves would not be sinful, but when allowed to cause us to be unfaithful to the Lord it becomes sin. Clearly even if smoking were not harmful it would certainly come under the heading of being an over indulgence in us seeking pleasure and therefore a sin.

          Smoking is clearly harmful to our health and that in itself makes it a sin, however there is another reason that smoking is a sin. It not only harms our health, it hurts our testimony and controls us. Let me give you a personal example.

          A young mother was saved while I was pastor of my second church. She had never been to church in her life or never read the Bible. Thank the Lord she had neighbors who were a godly retired couple and for many years they witnessed to her. Finally, she came to church and heard the preaching of God's word and was saved. I will never forget the day she was saved. It was a joy to see her life changing and see her growing as a young Christian! She loved the Bible and everyone could see how the Lord was working in her life. She had heart trouble and the doctors told her she must stop smoking. She had a 2-3 year old daughter and she talked about her concern for her example to her daughter and her Sunday school class of primaries she had begun to work with. She was having a hard time quitting. In a prayer meeting I was taking requests. There was a break and I was waiting to see if anyone else had a prayer request. Tearfully, she suddenly stood up and asked for prayer that she would overcome smoking and began expressing how hard it was for her. There was a change in her voice toward desperation and she blurted out, "Every time I get close to quitting, three members of our church who smoke come to my mind. They are Christians and yet they smoke! I use them as an excuse and keep on smoking." You could see it was something that was seriously affecting her and she was really struggling with the bad testimony of several people in our church.

          These church members were a bad example to her and a stumbling block to this young Christian. Instead of having a testimony to uplift and support the spiritual growth of a young Christian their smoking was a hindrance that young Christians in our church had to overcome.

          Another young mother in our church who because of her background was really struggling with living for Christ. Smoking was one part of her problems. She was honestly trying and everyone could see that. We were all praying for her. God had brought conviction to her life and she wanted to obey the Lord. She had been saved only about a year and all of a sudden she just stopped coming to church and started going down hill. Being concerned for her I visited with her and she shared how she was also had been trying to quit smoking. She said she had failed miserably. She related to me that she visited one of our church trustees, who smoked and tried to hide it. She said she mentioned to him about how she was trying to quit and how hard it was. She was seeking his help, yet he then told her smoking was OK and there wasn't anything in the Bible against it, and offered her a cigarette! That was the straw that broke the camels back. Feeling totally defeated and not able to overcome this thing in her life she just gave up.

          This trustee in our church prided himself in his knowledge of the Bible. He closed his wonderfully worded prayers thanking God for how wonderful the Lord was yet he over looked 1 Cor. 6:19-20. He knew better. He had a heart attack a couple of years later and almost died. The doctor warned him that smoking was harmful, yet he refused to admit it. The Devil used this Christian man who was sinning against God and his own body to defeat this young lady who was struggling also with sin. As far as I know she never returned to church. I cannot say that he was the only cause for her failure, but he certainly had a hand in it. The last I heard she had divorced her husband, was living in sin, and her boys had gone wild and one was in jail.

          I wonder what might have happened if this trustee had offered her biblical comfort, support as a Christian brother and prayed with her instead of giving her a cigarette! This Christian man helped destroy a young babe in Christ seeking to justify his own sin.

          The first young Christian woman had a godly neighbor who prayed for her and was used of the Lord to help her overcome this sin. She was able to quit smoking and this victory in her life was only one of many more to come. That was over ten years ago and she remains today faithful to the Lord. Another good part of this story was that about a year after she was saved her husband was also saved and now her daughter who is about twelve years old.

          The second young Christian woman was crushed by the harden heart of a rebellious brother in Christ who not only would not admit his sin, but let the Devil use him to defeat this young woman. Is smoking a sin? You bet it is!

God BLess

-- Edited by bobw at 18:15, 2008-01-10

Adding rules for living to what the Bible says may be legalism ... or it may be common sense.
I do not tell ANYONE that drinking is a sin ... but I do NOT consume alcohol myself ... because for me it would not be wise since I come from a family of people who were alcoholics and the genetic factors are just too great.
Paul said, "All things are permissible for me but not all things are expedient."
That's where I stand.

I would only say that I understand what you are saying, I just believe that we as Christians, need to do all we can to be separate in regards to our moral conduct.  I am not sure why you have a problem with morality?  It is plain to see that one of the most remarkable phases in the lives of the American people is when mothers had to go to work to help support the family and children were therefore subject to the "moral" attitudes or peer pressures and outside the home attitudes.  Our morals have fallen off the scale since that period.  Morals are what the world today use as a standard of what is right and wrong.  Whether we agree with that is not really important because it stll remains what it is.  We all guage others by their moral conduct.  This has nothing to do with salvation but certainly has to do with how we perceive others. MY contention has always been that we should not present ourselves to others in any fashion that would be a stumbling block.  Just imagine someone who is having trouble in life and searching for truth who has been talking to you about Christ and His plan of Salvation.  This person is maybe just a moment away from making the most important decision in his or her life.  They come driving around the square in your hometown late one evening while out thinking about their life and Christ and they all of a sudden look up and see you coming out of a tavern laughing with a group of people.  They have no idea whether you are just laughing because of a joke, just happy or are drunk off your butt.  I can imagine how they would maybe think to themselves, wow...what a hypocrite.  Why would they think this...because this is how the world thinks.  Right or wrong...it still is.  Therefore, your innocence in having only a beer or two may be just the thing that turned this person off the Christ forever.  I know...this is a made up story...but I have experienced just the situation myself...only by the Grace of God and my own desire to give the person the benefit of the doubt did I turn to Jesus and accept Him as my Savior.  I just as easily could have done as the person in the story above did and turn away instead.  I therefore believe it is better for me and all Christians to sacrifice those small pleasures of the flesh for the benefit of the lost who are searching. A very small price to pay for sure.

The Apostle Paul exhorted the Body of Christ that, if they truly loved their fellow man, they would set aside their personal freedom by refraining from behavior that might be a stumbling block to their weaker brother.

Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the Biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to over-consumption of alcohol, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others it is usually best for a Christian to abstain entirely from drinking alcohol.

Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or might encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).
Bod Bless

-- Edited by bobw at 09:43, 2008-01-10

Saint,
 Could you expound on that a little?

Here is a rather long article on the subject of wine drinking in which I would also substitute smoking for wine and get the same results. I always believed and still do that smoking and drinking are stumbling blocks what we should not put forth to the unbeliever to stumble over.

A Christian Perspective on Wine-Drinking

by Norman Geisler

The Bible says several things about the use of wine.  

 

Is Wine Today Like New Testament Wine?

Many wine-drinking [so-called] "Christians" today mistakenly assume that what the New Testament meant by wine is identical to wine used today. This, however, is false. In fact today's wine is by biblical definitions "strong drink," and hence is forbidden in the Bible! What the Bible frequently meant by wine was basically purified water.

Stein researched wine-drinking in the ancient world, in Jewish sources, and in the Bible.(7) He pointed out that wine in Homer's day was twenty parts water and one part wine (Odyssey 9.208-9). Pliny referred to wine as eight parts water and one part wine (Natural History 14.6-54). According to Aristophanes, it was stronger: three parts water and two parts wine. Other classical Greek writers spoke of other mixtures: Euenos -- three parts water, one part wine; Hesiod -- three to one, water to wine; Alexis -- four to one: Diocles and Anacreon -- two to one: and Ion -- three to one. The average was about three or four parts of water to one part of wine.  Sometimes in the ancient world one part water would be mixed with one part wine; this was considered strong wine. And anyone who drank wine unmixed was looked on as a Scythian, a barbarian. That means the Greeks would say today, "You Americans are barbarians -- drinking straight wine."  For example, Athenaeus quoted Mnesitheus of Athens as saying, "in daily intercourse, to those who drink it moderately it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds it brings violence.  Mix it half and half and you get madness; unmixed -- bodily collapse."(8) Here is a pagan saying, "Half and half is madness, and unmixed wine brings death."

Stein also observes that "in several instances in the Old Testament a distinction is made between 'wine' and 'strong drink'" (e.g., Lev. 10:8-9). Strong drink is one thing, wine is another thing. The same distinction is made in Deuteronomy 14:26; 29:6; Judges 13:4; and elsewhere. According to the Talmud the "wine" used in the Passover meal was three parts water and one part wine (cf. 2 Macc. 15:39).(9)  

It may also be that the wine Jesus miraculously provided at the wedding in Cana (John 2: 1-11) was a similar drink, that is, wine mixed with water. The word oinos ("wine") refers sometimes to fermented grape juice (e.g., Eph. 5:18) and sometimes to fresh, not fully fermented grape juice (e.g., Rev. 19:15).  Furthermore, in ancient times not many beverages were safe to drink. Stein indicates that in the ancient world water could be made safe in one of several ways. It could be boiled, but this was tedious and costly. Or it could be filtered, but this was not a safe method. Or some wine could be put in the water to kill the germs -- one part wine with three or four parts water.

Wine today has a much higher level of alcohol than wine in the New Testament. In fact in New Testament times one would need to drink twenty-two glasses of wine in order to consume the large amount of alcohol in two martinis today. Stein humorously notes, "In other words, it is possible to become intoxicated from wine mixed with three parts water, but one's drinking would probably affect the bladder long before the mind."(10)  
 

Though fermented wine was drunk in Bible times and though the Bible approved of wine-drinking, one needs to remember that the alcoholic content was much less than that of wine today. What is used today is not the wine of the New Testament! Therefore Christians ought not drink wine, beer, or other alcoholic beverages for they are actually "strong drink" and are forbidden in Scripture. Even ancient pagans did not drink what some [so-called] "Christians" drink today!  Thus it is wrong to argue that since people in Bible times drank wine, Christians today can do the same.  Properly speaking, people then drank purified water. New Testament wine was basically a water-purification method. It was not an unsafe liquor; it was a safe liquid. But in America purifying water with wine is unnecessary, and plenty of nonaddictive beverages are available.

Drunkenness Is a Sin

Wine in the Bible was not to be used excessively, and one was not to become drunk with the fruit of the vine. In the Old Testament a drunkard was put to death (Deut. 21:20-21). Drunkenness was considered to be such an incorrigible sin that capital punishment was used for it as well as for murder, rape, blasphemy of parents, etc.
According to 1 Corinthians 5:11, Christians are to separate themselves from a person who claims to be a Christian but who is a drunkard.

 Drunkards "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10), nor will homosexuals or other kinds of sinners. Practicing homosexuals and drunkards do not inherit the kingdom of God. Obviously God hates drunkenness. Paul also wrote in Ephesians 5:18, "be not drunk with wine." And drunkenness is listed in Galatians 5:19-21 among "the deeds of the flesh."

Strong Drink Is Deceptive and Sinful

The Bible says much about strong drink. For example, the priests were to avoid strong drink (Lev. 10:8-9). And Solomon wrote, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging:" (Prov. 20:1). God is opposed to someone using strong drink because it brings deception and turbulence into his life. Rulers should not take strong drink, for it distorts their ability to think clearly and to judge clearly. Strong drink is not for kings lest they pervert justice (Prov. 31:4-5). Isaiah wrote, "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink" (Isa. 5:11). This writer had an uncle who was drunk every day before noon his entire adult life. At about age forty he died of liver disease. He experienced the truth of Isaiah 24:9, "strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it." It may seem sweet to begin with, but it will be bitter in the end. It was the false prophet who said, "I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink" (Mic. 2:11). God is opposed to using strong drink as a beverage.(1) The Hebrew word for "strong drink" is shekar. It is used 23 times and refers to an intoxicating drink made from barley, pomegranates, dates, apples, or honey. The more common Old Testament word for "wine" is yayin, used 141 times. The word tirosh on the other hand, occasionally translated "new wine," means the freshly pressed juice of the grape, that is, grape juice that has not yet fully fermented.(2) It is used 38 times (e.g., Gen. 27:28: Joel 2:24: Mic. 6:5).

In addition, drinking results in a slowing of the thinking processes (Prov. 31:4-5; Isa. 28:7; Hos. 4:11); a stupor (Jer. 25:27; 51:39); sickness (Isa. 19:14; 28:7-8; Jer. 48:26); staggering (loss of balance and mental control) (Job 12:25; Isa. 28:7-8; 29:9); arrogance (Hab. 2:5); forgetfulness (Prov. 31:6-7); confusion and delirious dreams (Prov. 23:31, 33); sleepiness (Gen. 9:20-24; 19:33); lack of feeling (Prov. 23:31, 35); bloodshot eyes (Prov. 23:29-30); and poverty (Prov. 23:20-21).

Deciding About Wine-Drinking Today

How should one decide today whether or not to drink alcoholic beverages? Christians should carefully consider the following four questions.

I. What Are the Facts about Alcohol?

Before a person decides to drink or to continue drinking, he should be fully aware of the following facts about alcoholic beverages and their effects today.(11)

1 An estimated ten million problem drinkers or alcoholics are in the United States adult population.
2. Of adults who drink, 36 percent can be classed as problem drinkers.
3. In addition, an estimated 3.3 million young people ages 14-17 are problem drinkers.
4. Alcohol-related deaths may run as high as 200,000 per year. In two years' time there are as many alcoholic-related deaths as there were in the entire Vietnam War!
5. Alcohol abuse and alcoholism cost the United States about $50 billion in 1975. That figure has risen considerably since then.
6. Between 1966 and 1975 the percent of high school students who said they had been drunk increased from 19 percent to 45 percent.
7. Alcohol is one cause of cancer.
8. Fetal alcohol syndrome is the third greatest cause of birth defects.
9. Evidence exists that social drinking impairs one's social and intellectual capacities. Rather than getting sharper, people who drink get duller.
10. Half of all traffic fatalities and one-third of all traffic injuries are alcohol-related. Whereas a person has the legal right to drink, he does not have the right to endanger the lives of others on the highway by his drinking.
11. A high percentage of child-abusing parents have drinking problems.
12. A relatively high correlation exists between alcohol consumption and robbery, rape, assault, homicide; and more than one-third of suicides involve alcohol.
13. Taxpayers pay $11 to offset each $1 paid in liquor revenue.(12)

II. Will Wine-Drinking Lead Anyone Else to Sin?

Christians are to be concerned not only about their own lives but also about others. Paul wrote in Philippians 2:4, "Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others." And Christians should seriously consider Romans 14:21: "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth." A believer should ask himself, "Will my drinking cause anyone else to sin? Even if it would not be a problem to me, is it possible that it would cause someone else to stumble?" This writer knows of former alcoholics who have attended church communion services in which fermented wine has been served, and just the taste of a little bit of it drove them back into alcoholism.

III. Can Wine-Drinking Be Done to the Glory of God?

Paul wrote, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Cor. 10:31). If a Christian cannot be praising God and glorifying Him while he is drinking, then it is not good for him, and it is not glorifying to God. 

Several reasons may be offered as to why Christians ought to refrain from wine-drinking. First, people in the United States have plenty of wholesome, nonaddictive beverages. The situation today is unlike biblical times when there were not many wholesome beverages. People often did not have good water available; it was often polluted. Travelers today know that in many foreign countries pure drinking water is difficult to obtain. In many foreign places, travelers become sick from drinking the water. This is similar to biblical times.

Thus it is wrong to argue that since people in Bible times drank wine, Christians today can do the same. 

Properly speaking, people then drank purified water. New Testament wine was basically a water-purification method. It was not an unsafe liquor; it was a safe liquid. But in America purifying water with wine is unnecessary, and plenty of nonaddictive beverages are available.

Second, America is an alcoholic culture, but the New Testament culture was not. Ten million Americans are alcoholics, with more than three million of them teenagers. In New Testament times, there were comparatively few drunks, and alcohol was not a problem in their culture to the extent it is in this nation.

Third, total abstinence is the safer policy. A person cannot abuse drinking if he does not drink. In Christianity Today a few years ago, a writer asked, "How many people would fly if they knew there was a chance of one in ten that the plane would crash?"(13) The chances of airplanes crashing are certainly not that high -- far from it; but if they were, undoubtedly many people would refuse ever to board another plane. And yet the chances of an occasional or moderate drinker becoming an alcoholic are in fact one in ten!

Fourth, total abstinence is the more consistent policy. A few years ago when the drug culture became so dominant and people became so concerned about young people's use of marijuana, heroin, and harder drugs, the government studied the problem of drug abuse. The results chagrined many adults: The number one problem in the United States is alcohol! It is not marijuana, nor heroin, nor LSD, but alcohol -- the "establishment" drug, the adults' drug, the legal drug. This in no way suggests that marijuana or other illegal drugs should be approved. But young people took at adults and say, "hypocrites! You approve of your drug, and it's the biggest one in the country, and you disapprove of our drugs." And therefore it is difficult to win young people from drugs; they see the sheer hypocrisy of many adults.

Since today's society is alcohol-polluted, this writer suggests that Christians take a strong stand against all alcoholic beverages. This writer would like to suggest that Christians, in a Nazaritelike vow, should protest the destructive effects of alcoholism and should voluntarily abstain from all alcohol consumption.

On the contrary.
It was the custom during Biblical times to mix drinking water with wine on a regular basis.
There is no evidence to refute the idea that a glass of wine or wine/water mix was the regular and accepted drink for Jesus and His disciples. If you're going to argue from the Bible, do NOT argue beyond what the Bible discloses.

Christian Commando-
Since you are a minister of the Gospel, you need to be a lot more careful about what you teach. James 3:1 says, "Let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall recieve a stricter judgement."
First of all, the quote you use from 1 Cor. 6: 19 about our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit is specifically talking about fleeing sexual immorality. To apply it beyond what it is saying is error. If we apply it the way you suggest, smoking, drinking, eating at McDonald's, breathing the air in Los Angeles would all be a sin. I know American Christian culture has bought into this cult of healthfulness, but it is not biblical. If God cares enough about a certain thing enough to declare it a sin, He wrote it down in Scripture and made it clear. To add sins to those outlined in Scripture is very presumptuous. If God were against drinking, He would have said so, don't you think? Even worse, if drinking is a sin, then were are all without hope because Jesus is a sinner.
By teaching people your erroneous doctrine, you endanger yourself as well as the people you teach.

"Accept Christians who are weak in faith and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won't. And those who won't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. ... (v.20) Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble ... You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing but keep it between yourself and God." (Romans 14)
In another place, Paul says, "All things are legal for me but not all things are wise."  Sounds like he's saying, "if you know it can cause health problems or even death ... it isn't wise to do it."  And another thing ... can you, in Christian love, light a source of tobacco in a room with someone who might be asthmatic or allergic to cigarette smoke? Sensitivity and love for the brethren would militate against that, don't you think?

-- Edited by wordworker at 21:01, 2007-10-18