But if something is pagan in origin is it not a "work of darkness?" Paul tells the Ephesians in Chapter 5:11 "Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness (works of darkness in the King James); instead, expose them." You have every right to celebrate holidays however your liberty allows ... (I've had a Christmas tree for the last three years because I was raising a grandson who had had some serious emotional problems and who needed the stability of some "serious fun.") He moved away to live with his father recently and ... I threw my Christmas tree away. Not because I was going to hell for having it, but because I believe ... for me ... the "more excellent way" is to avoid as many "works of darkness" (things, actions, etc. rooted in pagan belief systems) as possible. And even though we celebrated Christmas during those years, I NEVER took part in Halloween activities because (for me) that was simply going TOO FAR.
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
LILI I feel the same way about most of these " preachers" . Most will say when you need something to sow a seed into there ministry but when they need money they ask you to give stange ahh.
I went to a church where if you practised any pagan holidays you were bashed and preached on and every Christmas Easter Valentine Day etc we heard the same sermons over and over and over. I believe each person has to decide there own convictions unless they are spoken of in scripture and then there is no compromise at all leave them alone.
In looking over doc harmony's last post, I was concerned that I couldn't completely place him with the JWs because they worship on Sunday ... and I couldn't place him with the Adventists because THEY do NOT teach staking ... but after some thought I know exactly where he is coming from ... He is espousing the doctrines of the ORIGINAL Worldwide Church of God as taught by Herbert and (later) Garner Ted Armstrong. While the WCOG has made a turnaround and now teaches doctrine that is orthodox there are many who walked out after the announced changes and began SEVERAL WCOG clones that still teach Armstrongism. AH HAH! doc harmony ... you have been UNMASKED!
-- Edited by wordworker at 12:01, 2008-01-27
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Your "translations" come directly from the Jehovah's Witness Bible ... your belief that Jesus was STAKED not crucified is also Jehovah's Witness ... Paul quote the OT when he says Jesus became a curse for us for it is written, "cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree," and most historians agree that the custom of the time was to place a prisoner on a crosspiece, fasten him in place and then LIFT THE CROSSPIECE INTO PLACE ON AN UPRIGHT BEAM. Sunday is the day many people worship because the first day is when Jesus arose ... and ever since believers have called it "The Lord's Day" ... look at John in the Revelation, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" and Paul, "UPON the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK let everyone lay by him ..." And NO ONE knows exactly when Christ was born because ... HE WAS BORN IN A "STABLE" NOT A BOOTH! I challenge your post on almost every point ... and I suggest you very well may NOT be from an "orthodox" (not Orthodox) Christian denomination.
-- Edited by wordworker at 22:38, 2008-01-26
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
The begginings of "Christianity " by the Bishops was the formation of the Catholic church (meaning "right thinking"), not to be confused with the Roman Catholic church. This was for the most part the conversion of pagans. To bring in Pagan converts the "church" found a compromise worked well. To do this they converted many pagan practices, symbols and holidays into christian parallels. Examples: 1) sunday (sun worship pagan day) became the new sabbath which was always and still is saturday (fri sunset till sat sunset) to Jewish faith. 2) the cross, a pagan symbol, became a standard. The ones hung for capital punishment were put up on "stakes". Why would you waste two pieces of wood on one human. You could stake two. Horrible but true. The original language, history tells us this. One original language.....greek text: G4716
stauros stow-ros' From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright) 3) Easter was a female goddess day of something i dont recollect now. 4) Christmas is a long story. Basically, Christ was born in a Suka , during the Jewish harvest festival, (fall). The Suka is a temporary shelter. The "manger" is a basket that holds some fruits of the harvest. Born on Shabbat (the sabbath) and circumcised 8 days later on Shabbat. Yeshua was not born in a barn! Shepards are not "out tending their fields" in december! Yohannan the emerser (John the baptist) was born similarly six months earlier. See : Luke 1:5-25 conception of Yochanan Luke 1:26-55 conception of Yeshua The Birth of Yochanan Luke1:56-80 The Birth of Yeshua Luke 2 One also needs to correlate the hebrew calander with the above to understand the timing.
So why do I say all this. Pagans and their ways have their origins integrated by comprimise in "Christianity" I think the compromise was wrong from the beginning. I do believe that one can stretch, move methodically, and breath systematically (Yoga and Tai Chi for example ) while keeping Mashika MaranYeshua in your heart.
Blessings DOC......................
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Pray as if all depended on G_d
Act as if all depended on you.
Randy~~ I think what the writer of that song was expressing when he wrote, "never know how much it cost ... " is the same thing wise people say when they tell a person mourning the loss of a loved one, "I can't understand the depth of your pain but I support you in your grief." For someone to tell a grieving person, "I know how you feel," trivializes their agony implying that their pain is no different than our own when NO one can truly understand another's sorrow or grief unless we have suffered the same pain. For example, walk up to someone who has just lost a child and tell them you know how they feel, you just buried your mother. Not the same thing at all and it trivializes their loss. I never had to sacrifice my only son for the welfare of a world so I can never truly KNOW how much pain the Father suffered. Even though we understand that the loss was tremendous and horrific, we cannot KNOW the cost. Anyway, that's what I get from the song ... I know I've never sacrificed my only son for the good of the world ... I can never know what that must feel like ... (I've always LIKED that song, Randy!)
-- Edited by wordworker at 09:31, 2008-01-26
-- Edited by wordworker at 06:45, 2008-01-28
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
I live in the Woodlands Texas where Fellowship of the Woodlands is aired on television. You know, the bald pastor, Kerry Shook, who promises this and that life changing experience. Years ago I was in dire financial straits. I called him on the phone and spoke to him personally. He wasn't famous in 2002 like he is today. I begged him to help me and my boys to save us from being evicted. He said these words, " Sorry! Can't help ya!" I will NEVER forget. When I see his bald head on television and his well-fed and happy family , I can't help but wonder what really goes on in his heart. Is he such a big shot like all the other televangelists , or is he a shrewd guy? ( Born- Again and praying for his soul.)
The simple answer is NO. The long answer is well.....long. Unfortunately we all fall into thetrap of pagan holidays simply because we live in this society that celebrates them. Without going into detail, I can say as an example that tho we have halloween my children are taught what it truely stands for. When we pass out candy at the door, we pass out tracts also.
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
There is nothing pagan which can be Christianized. When God would instruct the Israelites to go into this land or that land to conquer it he would also give them instructions to destroy all idol and pagan forms and artifacts of worship. On at least one occassion he instructed them to leave nothing alive which they ignored to their own detriment.
To me not only is Christian Yoga a little fox of the destroyer but so are some of the songs used so widely today which are proclaimed as praise and worship. Example: My wife still attends and sings in the choir of the church we attended for years and came home from practice Tuesday with the words to a new song they were learning... Celebrate good times come on, lets all celebrate and have a good time. Ring a bell? Kool and the Gang, mid to late 70's. While I have your attention on music there is this song that part of I like but the other puzzles me as to the spiritual maturity of its composer. The lyrics used are these: And here I am to worship, Here I am to bow down, Here I am to say that you're my God, You're altogether lovely, Altogether worthy, Altogether wonderful to me. This part is fine with me but the next part they use is: I'll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross. I'll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross. And I'll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross. No I'll never know how much it cost to se my sin upon that cross. When I hear this I have to ask; why? I should know what it cost. God's Word tells me. When God opened my heart and mind to his understanding I became so aware of what it cost. The depth of my worship deepens with each thought of the price that was paid. This concerns me as to how many "worship" songs are in churches today which really focus the attention on man and not our Lord. As in this one I hear frequently, "I am a friend of God". While scripturally true, on what does the song focus? God or who I am? Sorry, Joyce, I got a little off topic but this week I've been studying how the gospel today is so compromised and this is part of it along with your topic.
The homepage of this site is carrying a new article by Marsha West by the above title. I agree Yoga is a pagan practice and should NOT be practiced by Christians ... if we truly believe that Satan is like "a mighty lion going about the earth seeking whom he may devour" then why should we believe that we can open a door this wide and he will not step through it? But I have another question for all of us who believe that way ... how about all the other "pagan practice(s)" that have been Christianized? Christmas? (not Nativity ... Christmas ... CHRIST IN THE MASS) Easter? (not Resurrection Day ... EASTER ... named for Ishtar and celebrated with decorated eggs just as they did in Nimrod's time) Halloween? (Druid day of the dead?) CAN a pagan practice be Christianized? If so, how long does it take to become Christianized? Safe? Okay? Not trying to do anything here but stir your heart-cells ... what do you think?
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
because (for me) that was simply going TOO FAR.
