Thanks I appreciate the welcome and I have checked out the website actually Im listed on the website. My Parter John and I have an Internet ministry called Keeping it Simple. You can listen to our show on Bobs website as well as our own. But I do appreciate the work that Bob has done and it has been a great help to me in the past and Im sure it will be in the future as well.
-- Edited by Jason of KISM at 22:07, 2008-04-06
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2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Hope you enjoy your visits to our board! Be sure to check out our homepage if you haven't already. You'll find lots of informative articles on all sorts of issues either in plain sight or linked in.
Your reasoned responses are always welcome here.
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Jason first off let me say from another Jason, your desire to stick with the letter of the Scripture is admirable. That said you have to understand that every time the Bible says "riches" it is not always speaking of money. There are things that are far more valuable than money. The Lord asked an important question:
Matthew 16:[24] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. [25] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. [26] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Obviously the soul of a man is much more important than any amount of money could ever be. But lets take a look at something else first, how valuable is having all that your heart could desire?
Ecc. 2:[1] I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity. [2] I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it? [3] I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life. [4] I made me great works; I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards: [5] I made me gardens and orchards, and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits: [6] I made me pools of water, to water therewith the wood that bringeth forth trees: [7] I got me servants and maidens, and had servants born in my house; also I had great possessions of great and small cattle above all that were in Jerusalem before me: [8] I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts. [9] So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me. [10] And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. [11] Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
Now I believe that Solomon was a fairly wise man, and if what he wrote is in the Bible God put it there for a reason, you would agree right? So knowing that then what can we surmise about worldly riches? vanity and vexation of the spirit, in laymens terms a waste of time. Want to know Gods opinion of worldly riches, i.e. money?
Proverbs 30:[7] Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: [8] Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: [9] Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Not enough?
(Here is another passage I have never seen the prosperity types get even close too)
1Tim. 6:[3] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; [4] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, [5] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. [6] But godliness with contentment is great gain. [7] For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. [8] And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. [9] But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. [10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. [11] But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
I'm still certain this shoot down the entire prosperity movement in just a few verses. Now nothing here contradicts anything else in scripture so take these plain verses of scripture and stand them up to everything else that promises riches and tell me that God promised to make us rich and give us everything we want. Its a good thing God doesnt give us everything we want or we would be in serious trouble. Always remember Proverbs 30:7-9 and 1Tim.6:6. Being content is a far cry from naming and claiming worldly riches like the prosperity proponents shout. Just ask yourself how many of your brethren around the world are starving and suffering in persecution, the answer is millions by the way, and then try to explain them all away. The fact of the matter is that the prosperity movement is a product of western "feel good-ism" because it certainly didnt come from the Bible.
Feel free to present any scriptures that you feel counter what I am saying here though I am always happy to discuse the Holy Scripture.
Washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ,
Jason Sanford, www.kism-nc.org
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2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
So are you saying God is using double talk?He said something but really meant something else. Nope, not at all.
Literal Interpretation is the natural simple meaning of the text.Plus you have to pull your Idea out of thin air because the bible says we can understand the meaning of scripture. I agree with literal translation within context and agree that we are to study to understand scripture, as God instructs the Holy Spirit to open the eyes of our understanding.
If as you say God sometime try to hid a deeper meaning but the simple meaning is not true then there in no way to prove Jesus would be born in real Bethlehem. I didn't say that you did. What if both the simple meaning is true and the deeper meaning is true?
God is trying to get truth to us not hid it from us.This is why your approach to understanding scripture can get you in trouble.God has called us to teach the good news not keep it a secret.God is trying to get truth to us not hid it from us. Are you sure? What of Isaiah 6:9 & 10? "He said, "Go and tell this people:" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." What of Luke 8:9 & 10? "Then His disciples asked Him, saying, What does this parable mean? And He said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." And what of 2 Thess 2:9-12 "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
What did Yeshua say concerning the only way...Matthew 7:13 & 14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Becausenarrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." And in Luke 13:23 & 24 " Then one said to Him, Lord, are there few who are saved? And He said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
So are you saying God is using double talk?He said something but really meant something else.That is my whole premise, that the Faith guys use literal interpretation, you are describing allegorical interpretation in other words everything is symbolic and no one can know the true meaning of the scripture.Literal Interpretation is the natural simple meaning of the text.Plus you have to pull your Idea out of thin air because the bible says we can understand the meaning of scripture.Num 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
Mat 13:11He answered and said unto them, Becauseitisgivenuntoyoutoknowthemysteriesofthekingdomofheaven,buttothemitisnotgiven.
Psa 119:130The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Remember when Jesus was born and the wise men came to Herod then herod asked all the scholars were the Christ should be born.
Mat 2:2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Mat 2:3When Herod the king had heard thesethings, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. Mat 2:4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. Mat 2:5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judea: for thus it is written by the prophet, Mat 2:6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
They knew where Jesus would be born because of literal interpretation The natural simple meaning of the text.
If as you say God sometime try to hid a deeper meaning but the simple meaning is not true then there in no way to prove Jesus would be born in real Bethlehem.In fact I heard Louise Farrican (False Prophet for real) say Historical Jesus is not prophetic Jesus.Historic Jesus was born in Bethlehem but prophetic Jesus was born in Macon, Georgia (Referring to himself).
This is why your approach to understanding scripture can get you in trouble.God has called us to teach the good news not keep it a secret.God is trying to get truth to us not hid it from us.
The Masonic Lodge, Mormonism, and many other errors use that philosophy.
The big problem with that view is then we have no foundation of truth.However if the word can be understood than we do have a foundation truth
Jesus said Mat 7:24Thereforewhosoeverheareththesesayingsofmine,anddoeththem,Iwilllikenhimuntoawiseman,whichbuilthishouseuponarock:Mat 7:25Andtheraindescended,andthefloodscame,andthewindsblew,andbeat uponthathouse;anditfellnot;foritwasfoundeduponarock.Mat 7:26Andevery onethat heareththesesayingsofmine,anddoeththemnot,shallbelikeneduntoafoolishman,whichbuilthishouseuponthesand:Mat 7:27Andtheraindescended,andthefloodscame,andthewindsblew,andbeat uponthathouse;anditfell:andgreatwasthefallofit.
Would he tell us to do his word and then have it really mean something else
Just a question...what if God used the "power of word" thing and the "prosperity" thing to hide something? Or, maybe not hide something but allow those easily blinded to not see something?
My point still holds true. The debate is about literal interpretation of scripture. All the things you said about the struggle in Jesuss early life are extra biblical and Im sure you agree are speculation. In Mark 10 Jesus said you will receive a hundredfold now in this life with persecutions. A hundred fold in this life and in the world to come eternal life. You said that you have to leave these things. That is what I hear Creflo and Copeland say, give and it shall be given. With persecutions, what other ministers are being investigated by the congress with no claim of wrong doing simply for being rich. That could be viewed as a hundredfold with persecution. As far as 2 Corinthians 8:9 you said that was spiritual but all of chapter 8 and 9 are dealing with monetary issues 2Co 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; 2Co 8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. 2Co 8:3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; 2Co 8:4 Praying us with much entreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints. 2Co 8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God. 2Co 8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. 2Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. 2Co 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. 2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Chapter 9 is dealing with the same subject
2Co 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: 2Co 9:2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. 2Co 9:3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 2Co 9:4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting. 2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness. 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth forever. 2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) 2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
You see what I mean about literal interpretation. You said Paul is talking about spiritual rich but every law of hermeneutics will say this text is not referring to spiritual (except the law of double reference). Please dont misunderstand me. I not saying those men on tv are right but that we should not throw out the true teaching of the bible because we dont like a personality. There are some strange things happing on Christian television and I sure a lot of it is extra biblical to put it nicely. You said those men were wolves, why? If (big if) they teach the bible and the bible teaches prosperity why would that make them wolves.
I have had this kind of discussion with others and it appears to break down to an bash on tv preachers. I would really enjoy a dialogue with someone that can show an opposing view from scripture and not just opinions. What if we forget about the TV preachers and just discuss the word.
Jason~~ Welcome! You did well and we welcome you. I don't know where you got the impression I'm a minister ... Bob Wise (the founder of this site is but I am not). However, I agree that Joseph was a working carpenter and therefore supplied his wife and family with a home ... However AFTER Jesus had called his disciples and began moving through the countryside He made it very clear that HE DID NOT HAVE A HOME. And, when you consider that His mother Mary and brothers came to see Him at one point and He asked, "who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" Indicating that He felt more at home with his band of itinerants that He did with His own flesh. And it's odd how you quote the Scripture about receiving a hundred fold if you've left house, brothers, sisters, father .... and don't even hear what you're quoting! YOU HAVE TO LEAVE ALL THESE THINGS FOR THE SAKE OF THE LORD TO "RECEIVE" AND THEN IT'S "WITH PERSECUTIONS"! As for the gifts of the magi ... (and wise men were NOT kings, they were astronomers/astrologers) ... frankincense and myrrh were two of the spices used to preserve bodies. But Mary and Joseph had a long trip ahead of them that they had not been able to prepare financially for. All the way to Egypt ... their time of living there ... (Joseph was unknown, probably didn't speak the language and had no 'clientele' there) ... and all the way back. Why do YOU think God put it in the hearts of the wise men to bring gold? If Jesus was so wealthy, why did he have to have Peter go fishing for his temple tax? 2 Co. 8:9 speaks of us becoming rich ... but Paul is speaking of rich in the things of the spirit ... not monetarily. I've been involved with the WoF movement, Jason. I know what they teach ... and I know how they wrest Scripture from the overall context ... and I know how much pain and sorrow and even bitterness toward God is caused by their foul and evil misinterpretations. Welcome again to you ... but know that this site will continue to tell the truth and expose all WoF preachers for what they are ... wolves. And you know what wolves do don't you? They EAT sheep!
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
You said in a previous posting that you were a minister. So I trust you believe the bible is the word of God (I say this because if you dont then of course it is a different discussion we need to have). You said "Jesus was homeless" but how can that be in John we see
(John 1:36-39) And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Joh 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. Joh 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? Joh 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
Also Jesus said in Mark
Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, Mar 10:30 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
So to reconcile The Foxes and birds statement with him saying "come and see" (My dwelling)it is at least plausible that he left his dwelling when he started his travelling ministry. there was no way to travel back to his home town every night.
I am a strict literalist when is come to scripture because I am convinced that God desires use to know his word. There is no prophecy of scripture of private interpretation Peter wrote.
So you cannot make it fit your personal preferences.
Jesus was born in a manger because there was "no room" in the inn not because Joseph could not afford it. And not long after his birth the wise men came with Gold and ... (I would try to spell it out but you can probably tell my grammar and spell checker is not working).
That is a pretty awesome event especially if the wise men where kings which is up for debate.
I think that looks like a blessed baby no matter where you stand on the literal interpretation debate.
I'm not sure about what you meant about the "Peter fishing" statement That miraculous event is an overwhelming picture of prosperity. Could you imagine April 15th the IRS knocking on your door and you tell them to hold on Im going fishing and then you get enough gold to pay the taxes for two people. That scripture sounds like one the word faith should guys use. Why would that not be prosperity?
Also you mention that Jesus said not to carry a money purse
I guess you where not referring to this scripture
Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now,he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip:and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
You see what I mean about the word faith guys defending there position with scripture. Thats why I believe the debate is not about word faith being right but about a literal interpretation of scripture.
Besides all this Jesus multiplied food, had a fulltime staff of 12 one of which was a treasurer (Judas) plus he had people who supported his ministry (Luk 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him, Luk 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, Luk 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.)
(He started the first mega church Acts 2)
He also wore nice clothing Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the Scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
But if as you suggest Jesus was homeless
That still does not answer this verse
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Speaking from a literal point of view.
This is the first time Ive ever participated in anything like this so I hope I am doing it right,thanks
Word of Faith preachers may "use 100 verses" to back up what they say but they often misquote those verses. For example, one of the favorite verses of the Kenneth Copeland camp used to be (may still be since I haven't followed him closely since my deliverance from his deceits in 1981) was Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths." But the "Copeland camp" quoted it thusly: "I trust in the Lord with all my heart and lean not unto my own understanding. In all my ways I ACT ON THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM and He directs my path." Acting on the knowledge of someone is not the same as acknowledging them as Lord! If you really need quotes that tell the true story try the one where Jesus Himself says, "Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests but the Son of Man hath not where to lay His head. Matt. 8:20" Sounds like a homeless person to me. And before you say "He was talking about His OWN laying aside of His kingship to come to earth ... not saying those who were talking with him would have to be poor" realize that someone had just told him "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." (NLT) ... so He WAS warning His listeners about the price they would have to pay to follow Him. And when Jesus and Peter were challenged about paying their temple tax, Jesus required Peter to go to the lake and FISH. The mouth of the fish would have the silver needed to pay the temple tax. (see Matt. 17:24 to the end of the chapter.) And in Matt. 10 He told His disciples to "[not] take any money in your money belts" (New Living Translation) There. Is that enough? Or would you like a more IN DEPTH study? OOOO yeah .... something else .... "In the world we will have tribulation...." Soooo I guess we can't just speak it out of existence, can we?
-- Edited by wordworker at 15:04, 2008-01-10
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
You obviously haven't read many critiques. Pick up 98% of systematic theology books and you'll find what you're looking for. It may even be 100%. I'm not sure any word faith preacher has ever attempted to do a full-scale exposiion of the Scriptures. They prefer to take one verse here and one verse there to make their case.
I have read countless critiques of "Word Faith preachers" But I can not find one that counters the claims with scripture. It appears that a literal interpretaion of scriptue does support claims like: Your words are important. God will bless your finances. that there is a connection between faith and recieving salvation and healing.
Is the disagreement with church tradition or with the Bible. I read in the
Catechism of the catolic church that church tradition trumps the scriptures as a source of revelation.
Is pretty powerful when a "Faith Preacher" uses 100 verses in one message and the other preachers uses 1 or 2 if any to defend there position.
