Woodman~ After Jim got out of prison he wrote a book called, "I Was Wrong". It detailed where he had gotten off-track and cited the prosperity gospel as one of the main causes for his derailment. It's an amazing account full of humility and repentance ... anyone whose heart ached at the fall of PTL and the subsequent wranglings and bad publicity needs to read the book to see just exactly what a repentant heart looks like. No crocodile tears ala Swaggart, here!
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Giving to health and wealth ministries is a financially better risk than Vegas!!!
I have no issue with transparency across the board...I would like to see the tax exemption taken away so the church cna preach what needs to be preached without fear of this status being taken away by the IRS...It seems that we fear the IRS more than God when it comes to our giving...
Who knows what will come of these investigations...It will not be pretty...Much damage will be done to the name of Christ...God help us all...
Although, I thought I saw that Jim Bakker has come out with a new book, so who knows!
Nothing yet. The panel is still gathering information.
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
The first tax exemption for the church came about when Emperor Constantine converted from the accepted idol worship of the Roman Empire to a form of Christianity in the third or fourth century. It was custom to grant tax exemptions to the religion of the Emperor ... so the church (at the time the earliest version of the Catholic Church) was granted that exemption as well. (I'm not brilliant ... I just finished reading a book about how the traditions of Christianity .... including formal preachers, dressing up for church, tithing and even the present-day form of communion [not communion itself] came from pagan roots.)
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Whoa that might have been your opinion but it made sense. The church was granted this exemption I heard because it was suppose to be the welfare system to the needy in the early days and I heard it was in alot of cases used as such, but of course greedy MAN has to mess everything up and something that was started as a blessing to some has turned out to bless the greedy. I just don't think a true man or woman of God would want to live so high up and have body guards, jets, manionS etc when Jesus walked, rode a colt or in a fishing boat. I hope they will stop the nonsense because everytime you watch them on tbn etc they are talking about money prospering sowing seed into my ministry and get blessed, if you watch some video's on youtube you will see how corrupt most of them are.
Buddy ... In a way, you're right ... it is hard for the small churches to "compete" with the "get rich" churches ... but the next question to ask is ... WHY ARE THE SMALLER CHURCHES WANTING TO COMPETE WITH THESE MEGACHURCHES? The only thing these huge monsters attract are those who have itching ears, limited Bible knowledge and greedy hearts. HMMMMMM. And I was once one of them!
-- Edited by wordworker at 20:34, 2008-01-06
-- Edited by wordworker at 20:35, 2008-01-06
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
Here is why I don't mind the Senator calling them out. As of yet I have done no research into this just a theory of mine. Most if not all churches operate as tax exempt. This helps them offer a "carrot" so to speak to those who give in the form of a lower taxable income to the IRS. Not all who give give for this benefit, but for argument sake humor me and just consider. By granting this to churches the government has done them a favor as a means of helping them boast revenue, oops sorry, I meant extortion, oops, my bad, I meant bondage, anyway it helps them, or may help them increase tithes and offerings due to the money collected being a "taxable donation". So when I sit and think about this Senator wanting to "call on the carpet" some ministries I ask, what is the problem? The government has granted you this favor and now it is not appropriate to question your charitableness(probably not a word)? Doesn't this act by the government sorta bridge the gap we call, "separation of church and state"? Doesn't the church willingly accept the rules they are to follow in order to remain tax exempt? Didn't the government make the rules? The government gave the tax exempt privilege and can take it away can they not? So in a sense, is not the church who willingly takes this privilege accepting or acknowledging a certain amount of servanthood to the government?
If the example of Yeshua was followed, who had no problem paying taxes, the church today would pay taxes as everyone does and there would be true separation of church and state for there would be no back door allowing the government to slip its fingers into the church. Unless of course while paying taxes due churches fudged here or there.
Of course all of this is just my opinion and adding a $1.50 will get you a cup of java.
I AGREE WITH YOU KENNY! THE GET RICH ON YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN SCHEME IS GIVING THE WHOLE CHURCH A BAD NAME! I HOPE THEY INVESTIGATE THOROUGHLY AND CLEAN UP THE WOLVES OUT THERE! It is definitely hard enough for the smaller churches to operate let alone compete against the mega buy your way to heaven churches on sunday morning! Right is right and wrong is wrong! There is a time we have to stand on the word and I hope this ministry keeps up the good fight!
Very well stated, looking at if from that view I agree 100% with you. Most regular churches will not have the problem that these television people are facing because they are struggling to get people to pay tithes because they can offer them nothing but Jesus. If you offer them riches and fame most people are willing to pay to get rich. Do you think it ok for a preacher to have 5 mansions , private jet etc and continually begs for money to keep up his lifestyle in the name of Jesus?
I understand the concern about the government geting involved in the chuch's activities but, also understand that with the type of governmental system we have here in the U.S. we are going to have this type of thing UNTIL congregations themselves decide to do what is right and demand that Church leaders operate with a open door policy regarding ALL aspects of the Church's activities, finances, etc. As for the government deciding to investigate my giving records, I have no problem with that as I always give in cash because I take no tax break on my giving. Therefore they would find nothing. If someone investigated my pastor I would as before mentioned, hope the congregation are already holding him to a standard that could stand the scrutiny. I PREFER the government stay out and hope it gets to that point but as long as we allow this nonsense to go on in our churchs, we are going to be subject to this kind of thing I am afraid.
-- Edited by bobw at 10:42, 2008-01-06
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
Truthfully I have nothing to hide and churches should not either. These tele-evanglist are fleecing the sheep and making a mockery out of Jesus or should I say telling people money is the way to salvation. It is good to talk to you may God Bless you. As long as we agree on Jesus I don't mind the other little disagreements. Ken
Dear Kenny: In spite of my photograph (I chose Indiana Jones because I like to think of myself as a Swashbuckler for the Lord) I am a woman. While a lot of women are fooled by these guys I believe just as many men are, too. It's just that when THEY find out they've been duped they are too proud to disclose that fact ... even if it would save others. Think deeper about these investigations, Kenny ... what happens if the good senator decides to "investigate" YOUR church next? YOUR giving record? YOUR pastor?
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
I thank the investigation is neccasary and maybe the Lord is in it to help these people be more accountable because I see a lot of waste and make we rich schemes and let me live like a king in a castle while poor unlearned people pour money into my pockets. I heard a preacher say most of these preachers are still going because of women, most churchs are 90% women huh? I don't know.
Folks, I'm still interested in your take on the Senator's investigations into Word of Faith ministries. I know it's hard to return to a topic once you've seen it, but PLEASE return to my original post for the links I added and then give me your opinions. Thanks ME
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
