Forgotten Word Ministries Blog

engraftedone · Active Member

Methodist & Transgenderism

switcher · Active Member

So, you're saying only YOUR interpretation of the Bible is right....

engraftedone · Active Member

It's not the argument that is considered spam. I think it has to do with what is copied, cut and pasted. There was one that I copied, cut, and pasted that stated that the "blog" was considered spam and had to be approved by an administrator. That is why I started typing most everything that I want to post.

There is still not much room to argue with the Scriptures that were presented. In the New Testament there are some verses that state that we as people can choose to live by the dispensation of the Law, even though we live in the dispensation of Grace. And, if a person chooses to live under the auspices of the Law, the entire Law must be adhered to.

The person that chooses to live by the Law, is one that has not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. As seen in one of the previous poster's post, it is given how to become a Christian.

You stated in one of your previous posts, that you had been accepted by clergy and in various denominations. The problem with some denominations is this, they don't teach what the Bible states about salvation.

Some teach that to be considered a Christian, all that is necessary is to be a "member of their particular denomination and attend their church. Some teach that in order to be saved, a person has to be baptized in water the way that they baptize. Others baptize by sprinkling. The Bible shows that when people were baptized, they came up out of the water, in other words the people were put under the water, as to be covered. The Bible also teaches that there is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus, and one name given under heaven whereby men might be saved. Then there are those denominations that make unreasonable demands on the clergy and on the people who go to their churches. Then there are a majority of denominations that teach the Bible "is open to interpretation" when people want to justify their particular lifestyle.

Then in Romans, chapter 8, is instruction throughout the chapter that states that we as people have a choice to make, whether we will choose to live by the carnal mind, or mind the things of the flesh, or will live by the spirit (the spirit of man) that is led by the Holy Spirit of God. And, if we are led by the Spirit of God, we know that we are the children of God. These verses are also full of definitive wordings and are not really "open to interpretation."

It would appear that the people who claim that the Bible is "open to interpretation" are making themselves righteous and justified by ignoring the Bible.

switcher · Active Member

will my previous post continue to be considered spam because I might have good arguments?

switcher · Active Member

Are you also opposed to women as clergy (that's no Biblical....) or gays and lesbians in the Church?

It was my understanding (being told this from a member of the clergy who was straight) that in those times, men would disguise themselves as women - even having their faces largely hidden, so they could go into all female places to get their excitement. That was the reason for that verse.

Back then of course they didn't know the complexities of medical conditions like we do today. I've heard all these arguments before. Someone who identifies as the opposite sex isn't doing it for sexual gratification or for any behaviour of having sex with someone else. It's purely an issue of identity.

Try reading these articles;

Trans clergy are finally gaining greater acceptance 30 Mar 2011 Becky Garrison http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/mar/30/trans-clergy-acceptance-church "We call upon the church to consider carefully its vision of theological anthropology, its theological vision of the human person. How does gender factor into our conception of the human?" After all, in Genesis 1:26, God created ha-adam, a nonsexual term that means "human being". Then, after he created humanity...

United Methodists to Debate Transgender Clergy 22 Apr 2008 http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/aprilweb-only/117-23.0.html

"I'm concerned about the church, that it's going down a path of exclusion and that people like Drew who have clearly exhibited the gifts and graces of the ministry need to be able to have the right to serve," said Diane DeLap, an Affirmation spokeswoman and a transgender laywoman who formerly was a male pastor in evangelical churches.

"The idea that because we are transgender we can automatically be excluded from the ministry is, to me, personally offensive."

The Transgendered Church
By Jennifer Phillips
Friday, July 12, 2002 http://www.thewitness.org/article.php?id=773 One transgendered person she quotes writes: "I have long tried to offer every aspect of my life to God, to ask him to use it to his purposes. Feeling a little silly, I offered my crossdressing to him in the same way. . . I have been amazed and humbled by what I have seen God do so far. . . I still see hearts closed to God because people believe that He comes bearing a dress code" (p. 85). What Christian reader could fail to be moved by her description of encountering a transgendered person wearing a t-shirt that read, Jesus hates me this I know, for the Bible tells me so (p. 61). There is no more succinct statement of the church's sin of oppressing and loathing its gender-variant members.

Queering the Church - Terence Weldon http://queeringthechurch.com/2011/04/03/transgendered-in-faith-a-review-of-progress/ Transgendered in Faith: A Review of Progress April 3, 2011 My post last week on Genesis emphasised that a primary point of the Creation story is a celebration of diversity, which includes gender, sexual and orientation diversity. By grand serendipity (I didnt plan it that way), today marks the start of Transgendered in Faith Awareness Week. to mark this week, I will continue reflecting on the celebration of gender diversity, with reposts of some previously published material, and fresh thoughts, on some transsexual and transgender surprises in the animal kingdom, a look at some books, trans themes in Scripture, and some personal stories.

Your misconceptions of transgender/transsexual people might reflect common assumptions and beliefs about gays and lesbians. Many people automatically think someone gay, lesbian, or transsexual/transgender can't be celebate... in fact it makes people assume they are more sexually active than straight people. This is a fallacy, espcially with the prominance of sexually transmitted diseases... which are in fact more prominent in the straight population.

Perhaps if you were to talk to people like us, you might understand we might not be that different than you are after all.

engraftedone · Active Member

Here is another verse that states that God might have a diametrical view of male and female. It would appear from reading this that there is not much room for the statement that it is: "open for interpretation". I apologize, I did copy and paste this, because it displayed two versions side by side.

Deutoronomy 22: 5

King James Version (KJV)	Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.	5 "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

-- Edited by engraftedone on Thursday 16th of June 2011 04:57:09 PM

Victorious · Active Member

"It's easier to change the body physically than it is to change the mind - which I'm sure they would do IF WAS AN EASIER CHOICE."

" For some reason, no matter how much the prayers of my self and my family didn't make these feelings diminish. "

The above two quotes are statements that show that each of us need more learning of what the Word of God has to say about us, especially the people that are "true Christians". What is meant by the statement "true Christians" is this, the person or persons who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour by doing what is listed in my previous posting, found in Romans 10: 8 - 10, this instruction is also listed in 1 Corinthians 15: 1 - 4.

Repeated here is Romans: But what says it? The word is near you, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Once a person accepts Jesus, that person then becomes a Born Again Christian, and is part of the body of Christ, according to Ephesians 1: 2 - 23.

For space and length considerations verse 22 and 23 will typed out here: And has put all things under His (Jesus') feet, and gave Him (Jesus) to be the head over all things to the church, which is His (Jesus') body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.

Ephesians 2: 4 - 6 But, God who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are you saved:) and has raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. And now 1 John 3: 1, 2 Behold, what manner of love the Father (God) has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

So, if being born again makes a person a son of God, a born again Christian, or a believer, then the verse in 1 Corinthians 2: 16 must be true. That verse states: For who has known the mind of the Lord, that He may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The above gives instruction on how we can "CHANGE OUR MIND(s). Now for the matter of prayer.

1 John 5: 13 - 15 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask any thing according to His will, He hears us: and if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him.

Are all of our prayers "asking any thing according to His Will? Or, are our prayers not answered because God knows that we would be selfish, or use what (the answer) according to our own desires, and not necessarily His?

Could the above verses be "open to interpretation" , even though the definitive words: "now are", "this is the" , "we have", "gave", "to be" , "which is", "has raised", "made", "should be" for example. If the interpretation(s) isn't / aren't accurate, how are they supposed to be interpreted?

-- Edited by Victorious on Wednesday 15th of June 2011 08:26:04 PM

-- Edited by Victorious on Wednesday 15th of June 2011 08:29:22 PM

engraftedone · Active Member

There have been no generalized replies as you would suggest. The only thing that I have cut and pasted is some Scriptures from translation(s) that I do not have. The rest of the Scripture references have been typed out as I read them.

The scripture concerning the spirit and soul and body, and the division of the spirit and soul are plain and concise. Where is the "generalizations" that you state are there. Just because people may not like what the Bible says, most (even clergy) will resort to the excuse or use the statement such as: "the Bible is open to interpretation."

If you want to interpret the Bible, the best way is to use the rest of the Bible to interpret it. There is a book by a man named R.C. Sproul ( I think that is how you spell his name ) that teaches that is the way for the Word of God, the Holy Bible to be interpreted. There is also another way and that is to ask God for help in understanding His Word.

Then there are very good Hebrew and Greek dictionaries available.

If the Bible is so open to interpretation, why is that so many "clergy" and denominations use it? There is a section of verses in the Bible that states: We have a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Those scriptures do away with the poor excuse of the Bible being "open to interpretation".

engraftedone · Active Member

There were more than just the KJV being used. Did that part get missed? Or, just don't want to know what God's Word has written in it.

Here is a little history on the KJV:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Full name:	Authorized Version King James
Abbreviation:	KJV or AV
Complete Bible published:	2 May 1611^[1]
Textual basis:	.
Reading level:	^]
Copyright status:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Genesis 1:1 in other translations
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 in other translations

The Authorized Version, commonly known as the King James Version, the King James Bible or simply the KJV, is an English translation by the Church of England of the Christian Bible begun in 1604 and completed in 1611.^[4] First printed by the King's Printer, Robert Barker,^[5]^[6] this was the third such official translation into English; the first having been the Great Bible commissioned by the Church of England in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second having been the Bishop's Bible of 1568.^[7] In January 1604, King James I of England convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans,^[8] a faction within the Church of England.^[9]

James gave the translators instructions intended to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy.^[10] The translation was by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England.^[11] In common with most other translations of the period, the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin.

In the Book of Common Prayer (1662), the text of the Authorized Version replaced the text of the Great Bible for Epistle and Gospel readings and as such was authorized by Act of Parliament.^[12] By the first half of the 18th century, the Authorized Version was effectively unchallenged as the English translation used in Anglican and other Protestant churches. Over the course of the 18th century, the Authorized Version supplanted the Latin Vulgate as the standard version of scripture for English speaking scholars

-- Edited by engraftedone on Monday 13th of June 2011 02:41:14 PM

-- Edited by engraftedone on Monday 13th of June 2011 02:54:25 PM

switcher · Active Member

You seem to be generalizing the replies with what you can copy and paste in reponse to what I'm saying... my continued efforts to try shed some light here are pointless.

As I said, and my friend in the clergy said... much of what's in the Bible is open to interpretation... the King James version itself is a translation from Hebrew, which is an 'interpretation' of the real meaning.

God Bless...

-- Edited by switcher on Monday 13th of June 2011 02:25:27 PM

engraftedone · Active Member

God must be one of those the think that male and female are diametrically opposite. Genesis 1: 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Then to show that the male and female are diametrically opposite, some of the Mosaic Law gives instruction on what is to happen when the Law(s) are not followed.

Lev. 20: 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (this is because of the man's choices, not God's plan, and YES this is God's judgement)

Lev. 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. The word abomination in the Hebrew means: something disgusting (morally), that is (as noun) an abhorrence;

People should be thankful that we live in the age (dispensation) of grace, and are not bound to the Law as the children of Israel were. If people would apply knowledge and understanding, then they would see why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God's judgement, and also why the flood of Noah occurred because of God's judgement.

Romans 1: 15 - 32 is some excellent instructions for those who don't think that the Law has any effect on how we should live. Here is presented just a couple of verses:

starting with verse 26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet (qualified, or worthy). And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, ...

The word "deceit" is underlined in the above passages, because what appears to be being presented is this: when a boy grows up and is not happy because he "thinks, or feels" he needs to be a girl, and if life continues as is, that he would be living a lie (deceit, to self and others). Now, the boy is older, makes a choice to go through a gender reassignment, does all the prerequisites that were listed, and gets the gender reassignment operation. Is this not adding deceit upon deceit? What is meant by this is: the boy lived life as a lie, now this boy is a female (outwardly) is that not a lie to the rest of the world? The world sees what is supposed to be female, yet when the TRUTH comes out, the female was actually born a male.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The body without a spirit is dead! YES, it matters what is considered the soul or spirit, and the distinction is made in the BIBLE, not a man's (human being's) opinion.

"Would you deny someone a life saving heart transplant? Chemotherapy? Insulin? Anti-depressant medication? Is this different because it deals with sex?"

To answer the above, YES THERE ARE MAJOR DIFFERENCES LISTED HERE. Some of the issues addressed that can afflict people are not CHOICES that they made, the problems may have arisen from lifestyle choices, or from genetic disorders. But, the "life saving heart transplant, or the need for insulin, or chemotherapy, especially if it arises from genetic disorders is not a choice the person made is it? The only choice that is presented to a person in these types of cases is: do these things and you may get to live a little longer. Getting a "gender reassignment" is a lifestyle choice, not necessarily a life or death situation. If it is, then the enemy, the god of this world, satan, lucifer has won with the ultimate deception.

-- Edited by engraftedone on Monday 13th of June 2011 02:28:17 PM

switcher · Active Member

You are under the assumption that male and female are always diametrically opposite... no... men can have typically female traits, and women can have masculine traits... where are you drawing a line that somethng is inappropriate?

Is a strong woman or a weak man somehow unBiblical?

People quite often believe this is something that doesn't affect people until after puberty, after their sexual feelings become heightened. This is false. This 'awareness' of being 'in the wrong body' is typical as soon as someone begins to understand differences in male and female play... such as a boy with trucks and a girl with dolls. A transgendered individual typically, unconsciously follows the path for the opposite sex. This would I suppose be because they get gratification from feeling the what a typical person of that gender feels when doing the same. It's not about sexual desires at all.

Your premise is that God makes everyone with a spirit and/or soul that is congruent with their body's gender... when the Bible was written, of course the concepts of gender dysphoria (as it's known in medical fields) were completely unheard of. Would you deny someone a life saving heart transplant? Chemotherapy? Insulin? Anti-depressant medication? Is this different because it deals with sex?

The truth is, they find if people can do their day to day activities in the opposite role of their birth successfully, they make the change complete. It's easier to change the body physically than it is to change the mind - which I'm sure they would do IF WAS AN EASIER CHOICE. Does it matter what you consider the SOUL or the SPIRIT? If God wants me to revert to being male in heaven, I'm sure He can make me comfortable with the situation. For some reason, no matter how much the prayers of my self and my family didn't make these feelings diminish. Life certainly would have been easier in the initial stages if I didn't go ahead with this... but the more I explored it, the more it was a soluion sanctioned by numerous people. I didn't make this choice alone.

As my priest friend (who understood me very well) said, you can find Bible verses that can almost justify anything - either in your favour or mine.

You might just have to believe I did this to rid myself of undeniable feelings I didn't fit in... now I do fit in. As long as I don't have people blocking my path in the good I can do, I can be a happier person in the world than the miserable person I used to be who hid away in the basement much of the time.

engraftedone · Active Member

The last posting still left unanswered some very pertinent questions. The explanation given deals with the soul portion of who a person is. The Word of God states that we (as a person), are spirit, soul, and body. The gender reassignment according to the posting deals with: first the psychiatric anomalies, and the psychological aspects of the person. This is dealing with the mind. Or, the soul part of the person. It has nothing to do with the spirit. The second phase (which is obviously quite extensive, seeing that the medical team has to change a physical body to have or not have parts / pieces that were there and now not there, you get the picture) is dealing with the physical appearance. That part is easy to see, the psychological part is not so readily apparent.

The Bible states that the spirit and soul are separate. One instance is partially used above. Here it is in its entirety: 1 Thessalonians 5: 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Another verse: Hebrews 4: 12 For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Here's a question: if the spirit and soul are the same thing, how can they be divided?

This is from a translation that makes the verse clearer:

Hebrews 4:12

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

¹²God's word is living and full of power. It is more sharp than any sword that cuts on both sides. What God says cuts through and divides the mind and spirit. It cuts through and divides the place where the bones are joined, and the part inside the bone. What God says is able to judge the things people think and plan in their hearts.

Here is an example that I heard that helped with the understanding of spirit and soul and body:

spirit: that which God gives when in the womb, hearing (spiritual realm) how we are led by the Spirit of God

soul: mind, will and emotions (mind: the thinking processes; will: the ability to make choices; emotions: love (not Agape love), hate, etc.

body: senses-taste, smell, touch, sight, hearing (physical realm)

So the question still remains, and it is not merely a "sex-related" issue, whose or which spirit will be standing before God on the great judgement day? If God knew who / what we were in the womb of our mother(s), how can a change to the physical body, change what God intended for us to be?

There is one statement in the posting that shows that people are only dealing with the mind / mental realm and the body (physical appearances); "change the role of their birth to the 'chosen' sex...

this is not addressing the spiritual aspect of a person at all.

switcher · Active Member

I still feel that people are looking down on this purely because it's dealing with a sex- related issue. As someone who has gone through this procedure eleven years ago (and been celebate since), I would like to dispell some basic myths.

- Someone doesn't do it to sexually active, let alone be promiscuous.

- People who want gender reassignment surgery have to go through a battery of psychological assessments and have to live in the new role for a year or two before surgery is even approved... you can't just get it done on a whim. You have to take these steps while being 'a contributing member of society'.

- People who change the role of their birth to the 'chosen' sex are found to be more active in the world, personable, and able to interact positively with other people.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism "To obtain sex reassignment therapy, transsexual people are usually required to receive psychological therapy and a diagnosis of gender identity disorder in accordance with the Standards of Care (SOC) as issued by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health^. The SOC are intended as guidelines, not inflexible rules, meant to discourage people from transitioning based on unrealistic expectations."

Basically, people fear what they don't understand - instead of trying to understand this, it's often easy to just dismiss it as a perverted obsession. Dozens of medical professionals in the US alone have this phenomenon a cornerstone of what their practise is all about. Some surgeons do this surgery to the exclusion of anything else. The medical profession justifies the need for this kind of surgery in the operating room, the psychologists' and psychiatrists' offices, and in the general practitioners' offices.

I've also had support from clergy in many denominations.

-- Edited by switcher on Monday 13th of June 2011 06:10:14 AM

-- Edited by switcher on Monday 13th of June 2011 06:14:14 AM

engraftedone · Active Member

I have some questions:

On the great judgement day, (the one that everyone will face), in regards to the article about the transgender pastor, who's spirit will be standing before God?

Will it be the spirit of the person that was born a female baby?

Or, will it be the spirit of the person that was "made by man" ( the gender reassignment doctors, and the chemical compositions that the person has to take now ) that stands before God?

Or: Does the spirit of the person get changed along with the man-performed surgery, in this case, from a female spirit, to a male spirit?

Is there any proof in the Bible that this type of thing is right and good? Or, is this type of thing making a mockery of what God made inside the womb of this person's mother?

The book of Isaiah has written...Thus says the Lord, your redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb, I Am the Lord that makes all things; that stretches forth the heavens alone; that spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Then in Galatians: the Apostle Paul wrote: But, when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His Grace, ...

Looks as if, according to these writings God knew what was in the womb of the mother before the mother knew. Is that a correct reading? Then God knew what was in Ann's mother's womb. Surprise, it was a female baby. And we are born as a person that has a spirit, soul, and body. So, to reiterate the above question: did the female spirit (Ann) get changed into a male spirit (Drew) when the gender reassignment was completed?

-- Edited by engraftedone on Monday 13th of June 2011 02:15:03 AM

Victorious · Active Member

True, God did say that He would not destroy the earth again with a flood of waters. But, what about how the earth is destroyed later on. The Bible states that the earth that we now have will be destroyed with fire. There is also mentioned fire falling from the sky as hailstones in the book of Revelation. Kind of sounds like Sodom and Gomorrah on a much much larger scale.

There are no stones being cast at anyone. What is being presented is the WORD OF GOD.

The Word of God is very clear and concise on what God has passed His judgement on. If anyone is feeling as if a "person making a post" is judging them by using the Word of God, where is the judgement coming from and who is making it?

I would never intentionally "cast a stone, or stones" at anyone. If a person feels differently, because of what the Bible says, or has written in it, maybe it would behoove each of us to try and learn what it is that God wants us to do, not spout off our opinions, or accusations.

There are still some remaining questions that were not addressed in the previous post. The only attempt at any answer was to state what God said He would not do again to Noah, and it was God's Covenant with Noah that we benefit from in this day. We also get to see a rainbow after a rainstorm.

Oh, if a person wants to stop being a "sinner", all they have to do is what the Bible says, and that can be found in the book of Romans, chapter 10 verses 8-10 ...But what says it? The word is near you, even in your mouth, and in your heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Once a person does this, a person is to no longer consider themselves a "sinner" but, a child of God, or part of the body of Christ. And a person that no longer lives to sin, is this saying that we all will be perfect, NO, as long as we are in this dispensation of time, we can all mess up, but, we do not live for the mess up, but, for God.

switcher · Active Member

And God also said He wouldn't do anything like floods again...

I only have to answer to Him... He understands my heart, and what motivates me. I'm not saying I'm 'better' than anyone else... we're all sinners... and it was said the person without sin could cast the first stone.

Are you that person?

Victorious · Active Member

"Perhaps God in His wisdom has made people different for people to understand what it means to show compassion. Just because it has something to do with sex doesn't mean it's an unforgivable aberration. People used to believe birth defects were God's way of punishing someone... I don' t see Him as an unforgiving judgemental dark figure... Jesus is my Brother, and has vowed to protect me."

" I don' t see Him as an unforgiving judgemental dark figure."

Here are some questions concerning the above quote.

Was it God's judgement that brought about the flood during the time of Noah? Was it God's judgement that brought about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Was it God's judgement that brought about the earthquake that swallowed up approx. 23000 people in the wilderness with Moses? What about all the first born of everything that was destroyed in Egypt on the night of the Passover, when the children of Israel were instructed to put the blood on the doorposts? And was it not God's judgement in action for the rest of the plagues that beset Egypt?

Are not these examples of God's judgement in action?

jaybob · Newbie

Please forgive the lengthiness of this posting.

This response sounds as if someone is trying to use the "politically correct" agenda of "TOLERANCE". The Word of God does not teach tolerance, but does instruct that we are to be "LONGSUFFERING, and PATIENT". There are major differences between these attributes. Tolerance teaches that we have to accept wrong and sin. Longsuffering and patience are similar. Basically, longsuffering is what each person has to do in dealing with life and other people. The same can be said of patience which also helps us exercise self control.

But, to get back to the point, if a person is born a female infant, or a male infant, GUESS WHAT, THAT IS WHAT GOD INTENDED FOR THAT PERSON TO BE!

Trying to explain away that fact by using phrases such as, "what about the person who has the characteristics of both, or the brains are different, is nothing more than making excuses for someone or themselves.

Why should anyone be forced to "accept" and be "tolerant" of someone's CHOICE that in essence displays that God must have made a mistake when He made them. In the most simplistic form, for a MAN to go through a gender exchange and become a WOMAN or vice-versa, that is stating that God messed up. GOD DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES, NOR MESS UP. HE KNOWS WHAT IS IN THE WOMB OF THE MOTHER OF THE CHILD! So therefore, when "Ann Gordon" was born a female child to her parents, GOD KNEW THAT SHE WAS A FEMALE CHILD, AND THAT IS WHAT HE INTENDED FOR HER TO BE!

The enemy of our soul, the devil, satan, lucifer, that old dragon,etc. is out to kill, steal, and destroy. The devil is also "the deceiver", and when a person who is supposedly a Christian, or calls themselves a Christian, or is an actual Christian, (there is a vast difference between these), is being "tolerant" or accepting of wrong, or deception, that person is wrong and is in sin. That is what the Bible teaches. There is no excuses made for "what about this, or what about that". Making excuses for sin is does not do away with the sin.

For some Scriptural References see Romans 1: 18 - 32. A very good on-line source is www.biblegateway.com, and use the "look up in multi translations" feature. One of the versions states very plainly the the person who does these things has no respect for their parents also. This is because the person "turned the truth of God (being born a female) and turned it into a lie (getting a "gender reassignment" operation). Posted here is just a portion of Romans 1, from the Amplified Bible.

mplified Bible (AMP)

²⁴Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin],

²⁵Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it).^(A)

²⁶For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,

²⁷And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own ^[a]bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.

-- Edited by jaybob on Sunday 12th of June 2011 02:56:29 PM

switcher · Active Member

How about the people who have sexual characteristics of BOTH genders? I don't believe God makes junk... he's made a wide variety of different animals in the world... and did you know homosexuality and gender abnormalities affect animals as well?

I seem to remember a verse "Judge no lest ye be judged". You're not perfect.

Do you realise when a baby is in the womb, the body and the brain are deveoped at different times in different ways? And, there is a measurable difference between a male and a female brain in the area of the Hypothalamus.

Perhaps God in His wisdom has made people different for people to understand what it means to show compassion. Just because it has something to do with sex doesn't mean it's an unforgivable aberration. People used to believe birth defects were God's way of punishing someone... I don' t see Him as an unforgiving judgemental dark figure... Jesus is my Brother, and has vowed to protect me.

Many of the things in the Bible that are questionable are because they were part of the common Jewish Culture of the day, and not because God approved of it. They had funny laws like not having more than one kind of material in a garment, or that a man could have more than one wife.

jaybob · Newbie

Please forgive me, as to the length of this post. It was felt necessary to quote from the article, that started this topic. It seems to have veered from the original intent. Quotes from the article:

About 18 months ago, after 46 years of feeling trapped in the wrong body, the Methodist minister had sexual reassignment surgery, at last aligning psyche and sex. The Rev. Ann Gordon became the Rev. Drew Phoenix.

Phoenix, now 48, describes the transition from female to male as a homecoming. "For me, now it's very much about being embodied. My spirit is in a body now," Phoenix said. As a female, "my spirit was just, like, homeless." The 40 or so members of St. John's, who say they pride themselves on being the most accepting and inclusive Methodist church in Baltimore, said their minister's sex change was no big deal. They had some questions, which Phoenix answered in individual meetings, but no large theological hang-ups.

"It was like, 'Okay, great, congratulations. You're living as God intended now. How wonderful,' " said Kara Ker, 33, a social worker and lifelong Methodist. "Every now and then, people struggle with the pronouns. That's the biggest challenge."

The above is, and the entire article IS: "Deception in the Church" in its TRUEST form. What is sad, is that the denomination has to have a general council meeting to determine if this is right or wrong. I had intended on using more of the article but cut it down. Did the parents of the person have a "female baby" born to them? or did the doctors, nurses, mid-wife, etc. not know what was born? If born a female, guess what, THAT IS WHAT GOD INTENDED FOR THE PERSON TO BE! Likewise if a person is born a male, GOD INTENDED THAT PERSON TO BE MALE!

How hard is that to figure out?

-- Edited by jaybob on Thursday 9th of June 2011 07:16:12 PM

switcher · Active Member

People have the misconception that being transgendered is largely a state 'of being' that is purely of sexual tittilation and eroticism. It's not. Idenifying as the opposite sex is something that typically happens when someone starts to understand the difference between male and female. It's nothing 'sexual' to someone that young, but rather it's just a comfortable way they see how they fit into the world. If someone isn't allowed to pursue their exploration, they feel awkward, isolated, and at time suicidal if the feelings intensify. I knew a crossdresser, and guess what, he was a member of the Catholic Church. None of his conversations with me ever indicated he wanted any kind of sexual activity, it was just an appreciation of feminine attributes, and being in tune with some of them like sensitivity, compassion, empathy.... sometimes things men don't express very much.

God created MALE and FEMALE.... from a rib, to be by his side as an equal. One isn't better than another, inm spite of what culture sometimes makes happen. God's culture is that we're all equal. Woman wasn't made from a part of the head to lord over man, nor was she part of the foot, to be under a man's dominance.

Plus there are studies that show when a woman carries a baby, the hormone levels can change due to complicated events happening in the mother's life. These events can change how hormones work on the developing fetus, and a female brain is visably, measuraly different than a male's. The brain and the body of a fetus are developed at different rates, so it is possible a person of one gender can have a brain that has typical development of the other gender. (The internet is a great resource, these things can be found in many places.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNI9i1Kz86E Even people in Bible times accepted Eunuchs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC-k27Kvtrw&feature=related

Maybe God makes so many different, wonderous ways when we're born, we're supposed to learn tolerance anc compassion... and not be distracted by the sensitivity of a topic like sexuality.

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

RE: Methodist & Transgenderism

bobw · administrator

There is a woman pastor at Augusta Illinois Assembly of God. Her name is Patsy Spratt. Her dad had the church before her and she was the pastor by herself for many years but now is married but is still listed and conducts as senior pastor.

-- Edited by bobw at 22:43, 2007-10-30

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Methodist & Transgenderism

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

RE: Methodist & Transgenderism

Christian Commando · Great Friend of the Ministry

Hey people, I'm new here. May I speak on this?

While some Methodist Churches may operate that way, you ought to go to one in a near by town here. The Pastor is very strict about God's Word concering sex and sexuality of all forms.

He sticks and adheres to God's Word only and while does allow homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals etc into thier Church, it is for the purpose of possibly sharing the eror of thier ways and leading them to God in repentance, Salvation and a change of life for them.

But, remember this as well, all denominations have thier failings. The AOG Church backs the Biblical teaching, women are neither to preach or teach. Yet, I know, having belonged to thier religion and serving in a Church, they have several female Pastors over some Churchs.

I could cite a lot of discrepancies about our religious system and each denomination. But, they are all made up of falable people and thus, a variety of beliefs for as many people as there are in them.

It would not hurt, if lovingly, people saught out those who were like that before, and God converted and opened thier understanding to the Truth and speak about that now for God. Those people teaching about this for God, have the proof this is not "genetic", but attitude.

God Bless!!

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

I didn't have to read the entire article to know where to stand. God's Word is never more clear than on this subject. There are many that will be held accountable by God for making a mockery of His Word, both this way and by prostituting His Word.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Methodist & Transgenderism

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Methodist & Transgenderism

bobw · administrator

I just posted another article concerning the Methodist and the Transgender Minister in Baltimore. Please read this article and lets discuss it. The article is located at: http://forgottenword.org/meth-trans.html .

My stance on this is pretty hardline......No way! I believe the transgender person and their actions are against what the Lord teaches. As Deuteronomy says, It is an abomination to thy Lord! I was raised Methodist and then changed my affiliation to Church of God, then Assembly of God. I am now an Independent Interdenominationalist. (is that a word confused

). I did attend the Methodist Church again a couple years ago for one (1) year for the benefit of my in-laws and had to pull my family out of there for numerous reasons, of which one was their willingness to allow homosexuals and lesbians to be voting members, etc. I can say this......Wesley would be sick if he could see what has become of the Methodist Denomination. The Methodist now-a-days, by and large just believe that everyone is okey dokey with them and you have a right to be and do anything you want without worry of consequences.
Thanks...