Forgotten Word Ministries Blog

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

RE: Is the tithe for todays Christian?

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Joyce,
It's easy to see that we will not agree on this any time soon. I still have a lot to say on the issue, but I fear that it will just bring division between us, and that would be a travesty. I appreciate your other posts, as they are insightful and compassionate. Especially the one that I posted asking for prayer. You were the only one who cared enough to post your support, and I appreciated it so much. God Bless.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Saint
Unless you are callling some guy in a suit or a robe, standing behind a pulpit God ... God has NOT told me any such thing
The NT talks about giving gifts ...never gives an amount ... and the OT clearly defines tithes as THINGS OTHER THAN MONEY.
BELIEVE me since I stopped being a slave to the "money equals tithes" mentality I have never been more blessed ... I've been out of work for more than six months .,.. when did I finally get a job offer???? AFTER I STOPPED PAYING THE EXTORTION TODAY'S CHURCHES CALLS TITHES.
Yes... test Him ... PROVE HIM ... and when IT BRINGS GOD'S BLESSINGS THEN YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

-- Edited by wordworker at 23:40, 2007-10-30

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Joyce, God told you to give the first 10% of your money and offerings and alms above and beyond that as your are led and able. You are correct that you are not "under the Law" so to speak. Our salvation is based on Christ's perfect sacrifice, not our works. However, it is expexted that once we are saved that we will seek to please God to do all that He commands, and that includes paying a tithe. How can God help you out of financial trouble if you don't honor Him with your money? He challenged us to test Him on this.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Old Testament guidelines for tithing includes at least two tithes.
1. A tithe of crops brought ONCE EVERY THREE YEARS for the physical support of the poor, widowed and ministers WHO WERE NOT ALLOWED ANY OTHER INCOME ... well, there goes most of today's ministers
and
2. A tithe once a year of crops to a designated place TO BE EATEN BY THOSE WHO BROUGHT THEM and, if the crops were too bulky and the trip too far, those crops should be sold and the money used to BUY A FEAST THAT THE BRINGERS WOULD THEN CONSUME.
I am truly glad I am under grace, not law ... my GIFT isn't very often money because I don't have any ... and I certainly don't think it glorifies God to give money to the church when you owe money that you cannot pay.
And PLEASE don't tell me to pay my tithe and God will provide ... I've had to make too many excuses to too many creditors after paying my tithes.
My gift depends on what God TELLS ME TO GIVE. And whatever it is, talent, time or money, I GIVE IT CHEERFULLY because of all Jesus has done for me.

Christian Commando · Great Friend of the Ministry

Hey people-

Well tithe.

Yes, tithing is just as important today as was in Old Test. times. It was one of the ways in which God Blessed His people. But, in this New Covenant era, it is not called "tithe" by God, but- "Gift".

Jesus says this when states- if you bring your "Gift" before the altar and remember a brother has ought against you, leave your "Gift" at the altar and go resolve that indifference, then return and offer your "Gift".

God speaks in Hebrews about tithing and how Abraham and Lot had been incredibly Blessed by tithes- (Gifts), offered.

Lastly, how else, if people decide tithing isn't for today anymore, our Churches intend to stay open and operating for the "gathering of the Saints"?

Secondly- How are missionaries, the homeless and other needy people going to be helped without our tithes to the Church?

Between several Churches in this area, clothing, some appliances and other are provided by different Churches. Besides the fact, our Methodist Church in a nearby town is the head of the "Food Shelf" in another larger town.

So, just because we may think "tithe" isn't mentioned directly about for our giving in the New Test, presenting our "Gift"- (Tithe), is. Ad I would suggest, since Christ declared He came not to destroy the "Law" but fulfill It and spoke of offering "Gifts", we are still to tithe as according to the Old Test guidelines.

God Bless!!

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Scripture says:
Romans 7:1-61 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to anotherto Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

No, I don't think so. This would mean that we should eliminate the entire OT from our spiritual lives, except these three things. The NT writers quote the OT over and over again in their instructions to believers, reiterating a whole lot more than these three things. The OT is completelt applicable to Christians except for a few things that changed like circumcision, sabbath law, dietary law, etc. At least the first 10% of all that we earn belongs to God to support His ministry.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Those things specifically changed in the New Testament are to be abolished (such as the dietary laws, right?)
Read Acts 16 where "judaisers" came to Antioch and started saying that all Gentile believers had to be circumcised ... and later, former Pharisees added that all Gentile believers had to follow the laws of Moses. But read verses 19 - 29: "And so my (James') judgment is that we should stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, except that we should write to them and tell them to abstain from eating meat sacrificed to idols, from sexual immorality and from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals. For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations. Then the apostles and elders and the whole church in Jerusalem chose delegates, and they sent them to Antioch of Syria with Paul and Barnabas to report on this decision. The men chosen were two of the church leaders -- Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas. This is the letter they took along with them: 'This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. It is written to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia. Greetings!
'We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but they had no such instructions from us. So it seemed good to us, having unanimously agreed on our decision, to send you these official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question.
'For it seemd good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.'"
I guess that kinda eliminates tithing, don't you think? biggrin

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Here's my thing, I do not have any problem with giving as we are taught to. What I do have a problem with are those who will use Malachi as a means of subjecting people to guilt in order to get in their wallet. My son and daughter in law just had their first child. Since my daughter in law has been out of work for a month they were tight on finances. With 52 dollars in his account and before talking to me, my son approached a church official and explained his situation and was told he should pay his tithes in order to not be cursed but open the windows of heaven. Malachi 3 was used to prove this. This pricked me to study Malachi, its context, who and why it was written to. This led me to the giving that Christ and the Apostles taught. I am a follow the directions kind of guy who actually reads the directions before attempting to assemble anything. After learning what the tithe was, what it was used for and who it was to support it became obvious to me that we use it to gather money. We don't follow scripture correctly. If we are to follow OT scripture concerning the tithe then are we following God's Word or following it according to man? If it was in the OT that jumping off of a cliff was a routine thing for a prophet yet I saw no evidence Christ followed this practice or taught it, should I jump? I do see however Jesus taught to pick up my cross and follow him daily. He"gave" his life and although he does not require me to give mine, to me his "giving" to that depth means I am to give my last means whether it be money, talent or time as he directs. Not only as he directs but in secret. Why is it that churches keep records and we (i have done this but won't now) take that statement and take a tax write off each year? Do we have our reward in doing so? Besides he owns it anyway I am just a steward and will continue to give whatever he directs where he directs in secret to the best of my ability. This does include supporting those who feed into my spirit.

-- Edited by Sojourner at 08:57, 2007-10-18

-- Edited by Sojourner at 09:14, 2007-10-18

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

I praise God that "your eyes have been opened." I'm writing just to tell you how I personally give my tithes and offerings, not to tell you how to do it, just to share how I have worked it out in my own heart. I believe that the first 10% of the gross income (before taxes) that I make belongs to God. I give it to any ministry which is feeding me spiritually at the time. Most of the time this is my local church, but it can be given to other ministries which feed me. I don't save it up, I give it as soon as it comes in. I have found that if I get behind, it is difficult to catch up. Second, I give offerings as the Lord leads or as I feel is right. Offerings can be given to anyone. Any person or ministry in need. If I give to an individual who is in need, I always try to remember to give it "in the name of the Lord." I want the person to know that the reason that I bless them is because of what Jesus did for me. I don't see my tithes or my offerings as gifts to the ministries or the individuals, but gifts to God. Therefore, I need not judge what they do with the money, that is between them and God. Woe to them if they misspend God's money! Also to me: Woe to me if I withold God's money! God bless you, Sojourner.

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

My eyes have been opened, I will follow Biblical tithing. However, I think I will continue to give as Jesus and the Apostles taught.

FIRST tithe is taken every year to support spiritual ministry.
(Lev. 27:30; Deut 14:22)
SECOND tithe set aside every year for use at the holy festivals. It is
"eaten before the L-rd" with joyous celebration and shared with the widows,
orphans and ministry. The second tithe is required to gather with other
believers on the holy annual Sabbaths during the three seasonal
convocations. (Deut 12:17)
THIRD tithe was taken every three years and was stored in the temple forbenevolence, to share with; the stranger who needed help, widows andorphans, and the Levite. Today, because of the national welfare system andbecause of the amount taken from our income by the government, we do notrequire the third tithe. Some still give the third tithe to assist the needy. Because the third tithe is not required I give to my relatives in need without calculating it and pay no attention to the "year of tithing". (Deut 26:12)

-- Edited by Sojourner at 07:45, 2007-10-18

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

If everything in the OT needed to be reaffirmed in the NT to make it relavent, why not just throw out the entire OT? We don't need reaffirmation in the NT to know when to follow the OT. As I pointed out before, some things did change from Old to New, but this is not one of them.

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

Ok, then there should be some mention in the Apostles many letters to the churches, especially Pauls to the Gentile churches as to the proper way, or at a minimum his instructions to follow the Law as it pertained to tithes. God was mad at the Priest, Levites and nation for their handling of the tithes, not to mention feasts. Next, where is the storehouse? The storehouse in Malachi was at the temple, or close by, for the purpose of storing those goods brought in for future use which was a compensation for those who took care of the temple not having land given to them for an inheritance. I have heard Pastors preach "bring your tithe into the storehouse". Show me where the temple is and I'll show you the storehouse. Next, how often was this tithe to be given? Next, what happened during the giving of this tithe? What was allowed to be done with the tithe if the place where God chose for his feast was far away? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just point out that scripture is to be studied. If when I am faced by a non- christian concerning why I believe what I believe and my responce is, "my pastor preached" or, "I was at this seminar", or "my church believes" or this "I have read and studied and this is what I believe and know". This is but one topic many believers need to study. I would venture to guess that 90% of believers take their Pastors or denominations word as complete truth (I was in that percentage until recently). Even Paul applauded the Bereans for checking behind him when he taught them the Word. Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Dig into the word it is worth it and we are commanded to.

The Saint · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

I think the entire Old Testament is applicable to the Christian, unless it is specifically changed in the New Testament. For example, in the Book of Acts it is decided that the dietary laws of the OT are not to be imposed on the Gentile converts. In the case of paying a tithe, there is nothing in the NT that suggests doing away with the practice, so it should be continued by Christians. If you think you can't afford it, trust Him and do it anyway. He actually asks us to test Him in this! (Malachi 3)

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

If Jesus did not do away with the Law I am fine with that, but as you say Jesus came to fulfill the Law then he had to have been a faithful tither. That said how was this possible since he didn't even have a place to lay his head? He owned no land which produced crops or sustained livestock. Also, If this was the case wouldn't it have been something Paul, since he was the Apostle to the Gentile churches, should have given instructions on to them since the Law wasn't given to them by God? Being new converts and new to the Law it would have been an important issue for them to know and follow. And, if this is also the case and we are to observe the Law try reading Leviticus, the Law is very specific on what to do in certain situations. Since most all Americans do not own land or herds of which to bring our "annual" tithe from, what are we to bring? The allowance of exchanging our aggriculture and livestock goods for money was a convienence for making long trips to where "God" had chosen for his feast, then that person was to buy whatever they wanted for the feast. Also this, the tithe was to be brought and stored in the "storehouse" of the temple in order that the Priest, Levites and those who had need would have an ability to make a living since they were not given any land as an inheritance by God. Which brings another point, if each individual is now the temple where God resides, where is the storehouse? "No ye not that ye are the temple".Not only that, but according to Malachi 3 God will have no choice but to curse those who rob him. Does that mean he vacates his temple, each believer, in order to do this? Or does he stay and recieve his own curse? Malachi 3 was God's anger with the Priest, Levites and Israel as a nation for not only robbing the tithe, but how they conducted all other tithe gathering and feasts. Knowing what the tithe was as described in the Word, how and what it was for takes a study of the word. What is scriptual for today is this; giving to support the minister of the gospel, giving and ministering to the saints, giving to those in need especially those unsaved in the hopes that the love of Christ will allow them to see who he is. Giving is what Christ did to the point of shedding his blood for us to the point of dying. Until he comes again or we take our last breath all we can do is give as his Spirit leads, even to our last means of giving. And even this giving is to be done in secret, Matt 6:4. Picking up our cross daily is not an easy task but one he requires and gives us help with. The main point which should be taken from my responce is this, "study" the Word. It is not only interesting but commanded. The Holy Spirit will teach. 1 John 2:27

-- Edited by Sojourner at 05:08, 2007-10-14

-- Edited by Sojourner at 05:17, 2007-10-14

Nitin Joseph · Newbie

Tithing is applicable today as well. It is very "convenient" to put off some Old Testament Scripture as irrelevent and not applicable for today. Remember Christ Himself said that he did not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it entirely.
He has infact raised the standards of the Law. A person hating his brother has committed murder, a person with lustful desire has committed adultery, etc.
God sure loves a cheerful giver.By this it means we must give our tithes AND offerings cheerfully. If we do not give both our tithes AND offerings to the Lord and His work we are robbing God. Please read Malachi chapter 3.

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

That is what I found in my study. I also believe that as we give with our cheerful heart we should also follow the Words instruction and do so secretly. I am a member of my churches choir and may get approached sooner or later as occassionally they "like" to see who is being "faithful" in tithing. Since my study I have gone to writing this;" $amount / Ministery support / Matthew 6:4" in place of my name.

wordworker · Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

I don't think tithing is for today.
If tithing is a requirement as it was in the OT, then we are still under the law.
That doesn't mean we don't need to give. In fact, it places on us a heavy responsibility to seek God's will concerning what and how and when and how much and to whom we should give.
We are under the grace of God, not the law. But that only means that we must seek HIS face and give as He directs us to give.
Paul made it clear that giving was to be done cheerfully. "God loves a cheerful giver." And that we were to give "as God has prospered you."
For some people (most in America today) one of the main blessings they receive is sufficient money (and more) for their needs. They need to cheerfully give some of that back for the support of those who are suffering. People who are jailed for their faith, people who are temporarily having hard times, families of martyrs. And they need to ask God how much that amount should be.
But for some of us monetary prosperity has never been our lot. Our prosperity may be in space (an extra room for a travel-weary brother or sister), or time (visitation of the ill, elderly and shut-ins), or talent (musical, organizational, administrative, creative ... whatever) and our talents should be given generously to those in need (for those who play an instrument, for example, there are many churches who have no musicians ... find one and volunteer).
Even if our giving is done in the realm of money we need to make certain that WHERE we give is where God wants us to.
I don't believe that giving money to pay for huge churches, expensive cars for the ministers and the latest styles of clothing for the leadership is what God intends when He gives us the blessing of supporting His work. We, too, need to ask Him to guide us in our giving and there may not be a comfortable answer to that prayer ... especially if we attend a church which requires all members to pay a tithe.
Remember the church grew much faster when it didn't offer daycare and rock'n'roll concerts on Saturday nights.

Sojourner · Veteran Long Time Friend of the Ministry

I just did my own study concerning tithes and will post my thoughts, but first I would like to see what others think. The administrator of this site will have a headsup as I emailed it before I recognized there was a posting board.