Forgotten Word Ministries Blog

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Larry King Interview with Joel Osteen


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Larry King Interview with Joel Osteen
Permalink  
 


That Spirit is just waiting in a vault, so to speak, until the resurrection.

I was having some issues with this statement. Especially since it appears that it comes about because someone doesn't accept that several different words are used to name or indicate the same place.

Here's an analogy for you: If someone said to you, "I'm a trucker, I drive a tractor--trailer rig." What comes to mind? Do you picture in your mind, a JOHN DEERE tractor (the kind used in farming) pulling a trailer for hay? Not usually, the man said "I'm a trucker", so the mental image that arises is of a: SEMI TRUCK, "KENWORTH", "MACK", INTERNATIONAL" etc. etc. with a trailer, now this trailer could be, a flat bed (used for heavy equipment, or odd sized cargo), a hard side enclosed box, or soft sided enclosed box, a "belly dump" gravel, mineral hauler, etc. It might that the trailer has a cooling unit on it.  It could be any combination of these that the man said, "I'm a trucker, I drive a tractor-trailer rig."

The "tractor" that this trucker drives could either be a "cab over", or "conventional". The man said he drove a "tractor", some might even call it a"semi", or "an eighteen wheeler".  Here's another thing about this, he could pull a single trailer, or doubles or triples. Do you see how that there are a variety of different words that ALL will describe the same thing?

Here is the verse from 2 Cor. 12: 2 & 4   2 I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.   4 How that he was caught up into a vault, so to speak.

If you notice I changed the verse a little bit, I used your words.

Verse 4 actually reads: How that  he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for man to utter.

THE MAN WAS CAUGHT UP TO WHERE? THE THIRD HEAVEN, INTO PARADISE! (this is place with no torment, kind of like the place described as "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke)

I am a begotten son of God.  I have received the Holy Spirit of God.  I have not been born again. That will occur at the resurrection if I have not rejected and truned from the truth of God.

I don't know if this will help or not?

To be a "begotten son of God, you have to be "BORN-AGAIN" first. (John 3: 3)

When a person accepts Jesus as Saviour and Lord, they become a: "Christian", "a believer", a Son of God", and they are "born-again" at that time. 2 Cor 5: 17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold , all things are become new."

1 Peter 1: 22, 23  22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God,which liveth and abideth forever.

When a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior (read Rom. 10: 9, 10 and 1 Cor 15: 1 - 4), that person becomes: saved,  a Son of God, child of God, believer, Christian (these are words that describe what happened when a person accepts Jesus, true?)

What happens according to the Scripture?
Eph. 1: 20 Which HE (God) wrought in Christ,when HE raised Him (Christ) from the dead, and set Him at HIS own right hand in the heavenly places,  22 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the Church,  23 Which is His BODY, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.

Eph 2: 4 But, God, who is rich in mercy, for HIS great love wherewith HE loved us, 5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace are ye are saved;)  6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

There are other verses that say that we are the body of Christ, for example in 1 Cor. 12, Paul describes individual body parts.

If we are the body of Christ (now), when we physically die, we go "home" spiritually, and when the last trump sounds, we which are alive and remain will be caught up with the dead in Christ who rise first, and we shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, so shall we ever be with the LORD.  This is when we receive our "glorified" body, or become as Jesus is.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.




-- Edited by Victorious on Friday 14th of May 2010 09:09:05 AM

__________________


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

2 Corinthians 5: 6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Victorious,

I know I shouldn' do this, but you asked one more question that I did not address.

where does your spirit go when or if you experience physical death?

At the instant of conception in the mother's womb, God places in us a spirit.  Everyone gets this spirit from God.  This spirit is what gives us intellect, makes up able to reason.  Makes us different from animals.  They only have instincts.  We spend a life time developing our character.  Some, "the called out ones", the "church", are given God's Holy Spirit upon repentance, baptism, and accepting Jesus Christ as our Saviour.  God's Holy Spirit enables us to have a relationship with God.  That is why Jesus said He would send a comforter to the chruch on the day of Pentecost.   The spirit God places in us at conception comes from God and at our death will go back to God to be held some place, I don't know where, until our resurrection.  This spirt in man records our entire life and the character we develop during our life.  The intention of God is for us to develop His character.  To have the mind of Christ in us.  A good example of this is what the silver smith said about refining silver.  When ask when the silver was totally refined, the silver smith said that it was refined when he could see his reflection in the silver.  God wans to see His reflection in us.  We are to be developing the character of God, to become like Him.  This recording returns to God at our death.  It has no concieniousness of it's own, that is why God tell us in His word that the dead know not anything.  That Spirit is just waiting in a vault, so to speak, until the resurrection.  The spirit in man is totally different than God's Holy Spirit.  Every man or woman has a spirit, but not everyone has God's Holy Spirit. 

I pray this helps, and please forgive any words that I have misspelled.
wm


__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

OK.

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

I am a begotten son of God.  I have received the Holy Spirit of God.  I have not been born again.  That will occur at the resurrection if I have not rejected and truned from the truth of God.

Sorry about tome!

Much of what you say I can not agree with, so let's just be friends, OK?

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

I must say Victorious, you do have a vivid imagination!  Not a very good dictionary either.Christ was in His tome for three days and three nights. A tome is a grave.  The "heart of the earth" is a grave.Check your dictionary one more time.  Last time I checked, "captivity" did not mean paradise.  Christ paid the penalty of death for us, so we would not have to pay it.  Death was what was holding us "captive".  Christ over came death by being resurrected, the first of the first fruits.  By over coming death, Christ removed the curse of the LAW.  The wages of sin is death.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When are you going to start discerning things spiritually, and stop placing so much emphasis on just the physical, fleshly realm?


Jesus' body was in a tomb (not a tome, a tome is a thick book, by the way, so who's dictionary is not very good, can't blame this on a "typo" you've been consistently using this word as you have it spelled here). Jesus' tomb, nor is a "grave" that we dig today (on average 6 - 7 feet deep) the heart of the earth! To try and tell someone that a hole in the side of a hill (tomb) or that a "grave" , a hole dug  into the ground to a depth of 6 - 7 feet is the heart of the earth, wow, what a VIVID IMAGINATION. That would be a really small earth. Jesus is the one who said that He was going to the "heart (the middle)  of the earth" for three days and three nights (why did you place emphasis here, this has been quoted a few times word for word from what was recorded as to what Jesus said)

Jesus also in one of His teachings said in Matt. 12: 25 - 29, 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself cannot stand: 26 And if satan cast out satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except first he bind the strong man? and then will he spoil his house.

Col. 2: 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He (Jesus) made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (the cross reference that goes with verse lists Matt. 12: 29 as one of the references)  So, according to Jesus, one has to go into the strong man's house and bind the strong man to spoil him and his stuff.

There is also a verse that states Jesus after being put death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also He went and preached unto the spirits (not physical beings, but, spirits) in prison; (WHERE WERE THESE SPIRITS LOCATED THAT JESUS PREACHED TO?)  Jesus gives (actually Matthew recorded what Jesus said) the answer, "the heart of the earth.

captivity has as part of its meaning: those in exile. Where were they (the O.T. saints) "exiled" and held captive to?


What about all the O.T. saints listed in Heb. 11? Where are they? Chapter 12  of Heb. says they are part of the great cloud of witnesses. David is named among them.

They are in PARADISE, which is NOW in heaven. ( 2 Cor 12: 1 - 4)

I have never stated, neither has the Bible that these people went to heaven physically. These people will get their glorified body at the same that we, believers, sons of God today, do.

David's physical body is buried in the sepulcre. His spirit is in paradise, again read Heb 11: 32. David is listed with Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah; Samuel, and the prophets.

Jesus is the first fruits resurrection,true, so very true. The glorified body that Jesus has now, is what we will receive at the catching of away of the church, not at the end of the thousand years. We will be ruling and reigning and like Jesus for the thousand year reign.  The O.T. saints, nor do the N.T. born-again believers have a glorified body yet.

Why would Paul write 2 Cor 5: 6 - 8 (my paraphrase) ...to be in the body, is to be absent from the Lord, but, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...

In James it is written that the body without the spirit is dead.

So if I (the spirit) am not in my body, my body is DEAD, where does my spirit go? (that is the born again, believer) spirit, where does it go? Paul wrote that I would be present with the Lord.

It does not take a vivid imagination to see this. It is written by Paul, who wrote this as he was moved to write by the Spirit of God.

So, the question to you, if you are a born again believer, one who has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, where does your spirit go when or if you experience physical death?






__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

I must say Victorious, you do have a vivid imagination!  Not a very good dictionary either.Christ was in His tome for three days and three nights.  A tome is a grave.  The "heart of the earth" is a grave.Check your dictionary one more time.  Last time I checked, "captivity" did not mean paradise.  Christ paid the penalty of death for us, so we would not have to pay it.  Death was what was holding us "captive".  Christ over came death by being resurrected, the first of the first fruits.  By over coming death, Christ removed the curse of the LAW.  The wages of sin is death.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 


The Ten Commandments define sin. 

2 Cor. 5 tells that to be absent from the body (physically dead) that we are present with the Lord. (We go UP to paradise)

This statement just makes Jesus Christ a liar.....again!
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that come down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heven.


David has not ascended to heaven!!!

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:


How long will you hold to error???




 



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

To put these things succinctly:

Matt 12: 39, 40 Jesus said the only sign to be given was that the Son of man would spend three days, and three nights in the heart of the earth. (this was not the grave)

Eph. 4: 8, 9, 10 He that ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth, and when He ascended (after He descended into the lower parts of the earth) HE lead captivity (paradise) captive

Heb. 11 lists numerous people by name (David being one of the ones named) that were in paradise when it was part of the heart, or lower parts of the earth.

Luke 23 Jesus tells the thief that he (the thief) would be with Me (Jesus) in paradise today.
When were they supposed to go to paradise? After both of them died physically.


2 Cor. 12 lists paradise as being in heaven

2 Cor. 5 tells that to be absent from the body (physically dead) that we are present with the Lord. (We go UP to paradise)

Oh, and the verses listed about Saul and the witch of Endor, when we keep reading through the rest of the chapter, SAMUEL said to Saul: the Lord has done to you as "I said to you", and then SAMUEL continues to pronounce more things that will happen to Saul.


__________________


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

God was allowing Saul to be deceived.

 

Where do you find Scripture for this? That is not what the Scriptures presented state.

As you stated earlier we must be careful about how Scripture is interpreted, let the Bible interpret itself.

  

YES, YES, YES, I believe in the resurrection. Go back to an earlier post, the one about the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain...

 

The dead physical body KNOWS NOTHING! The spirit and soul of man is fully aware of the surroundings. (again see Luke 16 the rich man died, and was buriedbut realized his surroundings [again, this was an actual event that Jesus was describing, and not some futuristic fantasy or some thing that was to take place in the future])

 

Below is listed some Scriptures, that come from what a lot of people call the Hall of Faith (I even GOOGLED hall of faith and this is listed).  As can be seen by reading verse 32, DAVID is listed. Then in Heb. 12: 1 a statement is made that we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (who are these witnesses? see all those listed ( plus the believers [those who have died in Christ since] make up the cloud of witnesses, read again what Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 5)

  

Hebrews 11:13

  

 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

  

Hebrews 11:30-32

  

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

  

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

 

2 Corinthians 5: 6-8

  

 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 

 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

  

Hebrews 12

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about (surrounded)with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

  

The Scriptures concerning paradise: being in the heart of the earth (where according to what Matthew wrote, Jesus went for three days and three nights, and in Luke, Jesus told the thief that was where they were both going.

  

Matt. 12: 39, 40 But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

  

The Scripture from Ephesians reveals that Jesus first descended into the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended to heaven and led captivity captive.

  

Those that were in captivity were the O.T. saints that HAD physically died, and their spirit was in PARADISE, or as Jesus called it ABRAHAMS BOSOM which means it was a place of safety, preservation, or rescue from the torment that the rich man describes.

  

About David, yes, the word states that David died and his sepulcher is here on earth. THIS IS WHERE DAVIDS physical body was laid, interred, buried. This tells people nothing of where his spirit is. To find out where Davids spirit is read the above verses from Heb. again.

 

We must all learn to let the Spirit of God help us learn these things, otherwise we will rely only upon fleshly knowledge.


Romans 8:5


 
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

  

1 Corinthians 2:14

  

 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

  

The scriptures that you asked for were given. We should now strive to let the Spirit of God open our hearts and minds and reveal them to us.



-- Edited by Victorious on Tuesday 11th of May 2010 05:21:16 PM

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Victorious,

I didn't say that you were having anything to do with witches or anything else.  I just ask if you knew that God forbid have anything to do with them.

If Old Testament Saints went to paradise, why didn't David?

Act 2:34 

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.   Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.



Why did Jesus say that no one has ascended to paradise other than Him?
Joh 3:13 

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,eventhe Son of man which is in heaven.

Why does the BIBLE state twice in two verses that SAMUEL SAID and then Samuel proceeds to reiterate to Saul what God had told Samuel to tell Saul about the kingdom. IT IS APPARENT THAT IT WAS SAMUEL SPEAKING TO SAUL.

God was allowing Saul to be deceived.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything

If the dead know nothing, how could Samuel come back from the dead and speak to Saul?
He didn't, that was a demon.

I have continued to ask for the scriptures that say that Abraham's Bossom is a holding room where Old Testament Saints went (except David) and that Jesus took it to heaven with Him.  Still haven't seen those scriptures.

Do you believe in the resurrection?  If you believe in the resurrection then how can you believe anyone has gone to heaven or anyplace other than hell? (The word "hades" is the Greek word for "grave".  Hell is the English word for "grave".)





__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

Where do you get the idea that I was having anything to do with witches, sorcerers, or familiar spirits? What was being presented to you was SCRIPTURES FROM THE BIBLE, and they were being used to show that the O.T. saints went to paradise (the same place Jesus went to WITH THE THIEF). The verses listed about sorcerers, witches etc. I know and I would not have anything to do with evil spirits, witches etc.

These verses from 2 Cor. Are listed to show what happens to us as believers when we are absent from our physical bodies, or in other words, experience physical death. These are Scriptures that you asked to be presented.

2 Cor. 5: 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:  

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

King James Version (KJV)

 

 Now let's look at some of the other things that were brought up.

We get into trouble when we try to interpret the meaning of scriptures instead of letting the bible interpret itself.


I should have included these verses in the earlier post, but was trying to not make the post to long. After reading the next few verses, here is a question: Why does the BIBLE state twice in two verses that SAMUEL SAID and then Samuel proceeds to reiterate to Saul what God had told Samuel to tell Saul about the kingdom. IT IS APPARENT THAT IT WAS SAMUEL SPEAKING TO SAUL.

 

 

So, lets read the verses below and let the Bible interpret itself. Who do these verses show who is doing the talking?:

  

1 Sam. 28: 15 17 (AMPLIFIED)  [the KJV also says: SAMUEL SAID TOand THEN SAMUEL SAID]

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me to bring me up? Saul answered, I am bitterly distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.

16 Samuel said, Why then do you ask me, seeing that the Lord has turned from you and has become your enemy?

 17 The Lord has done to you as He said through me He would do; for [He] has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to your neighbor David.

Saul did not lose the kingdom because he went to the witch at Endor (although it certainly didnt help his standing or cause any either), Saul lost the kingdom because of rebellion and disobedience. He (Saul) did not kill everyone or everything that he was commanded to do. He left the king that he was at battle with alive, and kept alive the livestock, and then tried to blame it on the people with him. That is when he lost the kingdom.  

In 2 Cor. 12, Paul is actually asking the Corinthians for forgiveness


Actually the forgiveness issue is dealt with in 2 Cor 11: 7, 8; and then in verses 18 33 Paul is talking about the people in the church at Corinth and the boasting (bragging) that they were doing, and he asked the church to bear with as he boasted about what the messenger of satan that was sent to buffet him (Paul) and made him suffer through.

 
 Then Paul goes on to a new subject in: 2 Cor. 12: 1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come (tell you about) to visions and revelations of the Lord.

 

 

Then in verses 2 4, Paul relates some of the visions and revelations that he had been given.

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And these were presented to show that paradise IS NOW IN HEAVEN

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Victorious on Tuesday 11th of May 2010 10:19:52 AM

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Victorious,

Here are some Scriptures that may help all of us in determining that Paradise, Abraham's Bosom (as referenced in Luke 16) was a portion of hell, that had a great gulf fixed between them. The first will found in 1 Samuel 28: 14, 15; 14 And he (King Saul) said unto her (the witch), What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

 

Do you realize that God has commanded us not to have anything to do with familiar spirit, witches, sorcerers, etc.???

 

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

 

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

Liars are listed right up there with murderers and whoremongers, so when we try to interpret the bible we take the chance of becoming a liar.  Not good, for they will have their place in the lake of fire also.  That is why we have to be so very careful not to make the bible say something it doesnt say or content that it doesnt says something it does.

 

In the verses you quote above, Saul is sinning by going to a witch.  God allowed him to be deceived.  The witch told Saul how Samuel looked, Saul did not see the evil spirit.  The key word in these scriptures is perceived  Saul only perceived that it was Samuel, and the reason I know it wasnt Samuel, is because of the scripture that says,

 

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything

 

It would be impossible for the witch to have brought Samuel up and he talk with Saul.

We get into trouble when we try to interpret the meaning of scriptures instead of letting the bible interpret itself.

 

Then the next will be a repeat of 2 Cor. 12: 2 - 4 I (Paul) knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which is not lawful for man to utter.

 

In 2 Cor. 12, Paul is actually asking the Corinthians for forgiveness.  Yes, forgiveness, because Paul had taken tithes from other church areas, but had not burdened the Corinthians with being required to pay tithes and offerings to him..  These scriptures are not about some one going to heaven, or paradise. They are about Paul showing the Corinthians that if he were a false apostle, he could have been bragging about being trained directly by Jesus Christ and ascending to the third heaven or paradise in the spirit or in the body, he could not tell which, but he would not boast of these things.  But he should have required the Corinthians to tithe to him. Read the entire chapter and chapter eleven for the whole story.  Paul had done them a disservice by not requiring them to pay tithes.  Pauls writings are difficult to understand,  Even Peter said they were.  So be careful.  The Apostle John went to the third heaven in the spirit also.  Did he stay in the spirit? No.  He went to the third heaven in the spirit to receive the revelation of Jesus Christ.  His body went nowhere.  Paul was taught directly by the resurrected Jesus Christ for three years in the wilderness.  Some of that teaching could have been in the spirit in the third heaven.



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

The Old Testament also teaches the gospel.  Did not Paul say:
2Ti 3:14 

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2Ti 3:15 

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Is Paul not saying this before the New Testament was canonized?  There was no New Testament at the time Paul is saying these things. 



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

It is future because there have been no resurrections yet.  Jesus Christ is the First of the First Fruits.  Lazuras and the rich man are still dead and buried and in their tomes today just like David.  David has not been resurrected yet, so the rest of the story has to be future.
This story may be future in it's entirety.  Lazarus and the rich man may have lived long ago, or they may not have been born yet.  Jesus does not say when they lived or will live.  This story can be carried out at any time up until the first resurrection.  It will have already taken place at the first resurrection, because that is when Lazarus will be resurrected.  The rich man will have to wait until the thrid resurrection, which is after the millinium.  I'm almost sure the rich man will be in no hurry.

2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Jesus Christ is telling us what will happen when Lazarus and the rich man are resurrected.  Jesus Christ is the only One to have been resurrected to heaven, paradise or anywhere else.  The great gulf between Lazarus and the rich man is the first and thrid resurrections.  Lazarus will come up in the first resurrection and will be a spirit being and will be a priest of God and of Christ, and the rich man will come up in the third resurrection and be thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.  Revelation 20: 6.
Joh 3:13 
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Why is it so hard to believe Jesus Christ?  You want to believe Paul and take what he says out of context because you like what you think Paul says more than what Jesus says.  Jesus has told us that no man has ascended into heaven except Jesus, but you still keep calling Him a liar.  You still want to say that when people die, they go to heaven to be with the Lord.  NOT TRUE. Did Pual say that if he died that he would go immediately to heaven?  No.  Paul knew that his next moment of conciousness would be the resurrection.  Paul knew that he would have to wait until the first resurrection to be with Christ.  That's what the bible teaches.Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

One of the things that seems to be going on in these postings is that there is too much emphasis on what happens with the "physical body" and not what happens with the "spirit of man" during the dispensation of time that we currently live in.

There is no way according to the Bible that we can attribute what happens fleshly, to what happens spiritually. (Rom. 8 and 1 Cor 2:13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. )

When we physically die now, (the spirit leaves the body) and has to go somewhere. As Paul stated in Phil., 
 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 
 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 
 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 
 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

What was Paul actually writing here? He stated that he wanted to depart (physically die and be with Jesus) is the only thing that he could mean here. But, to stay alive and teach some more was needful for the church at Phillipi.

(also there were other churches that Paul benefitted by staying alive on earth.)

What happens at a believer's physical death?

Read what Stephen said again in Acts 7: 59. Then the discourse from Paul in 2 Cor. 12: 1 - 4. (could this have happened to Paul, personally, when he was stoned, and the people left him for dead, but, God raised him up, on one of his missionary journeys?)

These are some of the issues that were raised throughout these postings that I have been reading and studying about. Hope they help each one of us


__________________


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

 They have or will die, but they have not been resurrected yet, that part of the story is in the future.  Don't you think Jesus can show and tell us things that will happen in the future??

__________________
Just a comment about the above statement from a previous post. By reading the entire "Lazarus, the beggar; and the rich man teachings from Jesus, how is it possible to state that this a "future" event?

Luke 16:

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 
 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 
 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 
 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 
 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 
 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 
 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 
 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 
 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 
 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If this was a "future" event as posted, would not it have given  instruction that there is the GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, or as Paul stated, "My gospel...", and then a teaching on how to be saved, i.e.: believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and you shall be saved, instead of "...they have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them.? Something to think about.



__________________


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

Here are some Scriptures that may help all of us in determining that Paradise, Abraham's Bosom (as referenced in Luke 16) was a portion of hell, that had a great gulf fixed between them. The first will found in 1 Samuel 28: 14, 15; 14 And he (King Saul) said unto her (the witch), What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Then the next will be a repeat of 2 Cor. 12: 2 - 4 I (Paul) knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which is not lawful for man to utter.
Ephesians 4: 8, 9 Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now he that ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said unto him (the thief), Verily, I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Matthew 12: 39, 40 But he (Jesus) answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
So, if Jesus was to go to the "heart of the earth" for three days and three nights, and then he told the thief that "today shall you be with me in paradise, paradise must have been, and could only have been in the heart of the earth.
Samuel the prophet must have been in paradise (when it was in the heart of the earth) because he asked Saul why he had been called up.
Now, paradise is in heaven, because that is where Paul stated the man in Christ he knew was caught up to the third heaven, and how the man was caught up to paradise. And the verses from Ephesians say that Jesus led captivity captive after that he (Jesus) had descended first into the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended to heaven.

Hope these are helpful or insightful.

-- Edited by Victorious on Monday 10th of May 2010 08:59:35 AM

-- Edited by Victorious on Monday 10th of May 2010 09:00:55 AM

-- Edited by Victorious on Monday 10th of May 2010 09:01:43 AM

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

I need to see the scriptures that support your idea of Abraham's bossom being a holding room for Old Testament saints.   I need to see the supporting scriptures for your idea of Ahraham's bossom being a holding room that Christ took to heaven with Him and is now empty.  Where in the bible does it teach this.  Luke 16 says nothing about Jesus taking a holding room to heaven, and says nothing about a holding room for Old Testament Saints!  Do you think God would leave King David out????  Act 2:34 

 

For David is not ascended into the heavens:

Still waiting!


__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

I quoted half of Luke 16... what more do you want???

__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Ok, when you find those scriptures, let me know, thanks for the discussions.

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

Of course! But he doesn't use PAST TENSE TO TELL IT.

Compare: "There WAS a certain rich man ..." to "In those days ... there WILL BE wars ..."



__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

So what John saw in vision in the Book Of Revelation is a real event???  It is a real event but it is taking place in the future, just like the story of Larzaus and the rich man.  They have or will die, but they have not been resurrected yet, that part of the story is in the future.  Don't you think Jesus can show and tell us things that will happen in the future??

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

I need to see the scriptures that support your idea of Abraham's bossom being a holding room for Old Testament saints.  I already know what the scriptures mean that you put in your last post.  I need to see the supporting scriptures for your idea of Ahraham's bossom being a holding room that Christ took to heaven with Him and is now empty.  Thank you.

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

"And it came to pass Lazarus died and was carried BY THE ANGELS TO ABRAHAM'S BOSOM and the rich man also died and was buried AND IN HELL HE LIFTED UP HIS EYES AND SEETH ABRAHAM AFAR OFF AND LAZARUS IN HIS BOSOM and cried, 'Father Abraham have mercy on me for I am tormented in this flame!' ... and Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime hadst good things and Lazarus was tormented ... between us there is a great gulf fixed ...' " Luke 16.

Lazarus wasn't in heaven because Jesus had not yet died.  He was in ABRAHAM'S BOSOM ... Paradise.  (A sling that wrapped around the chest and shoulders of a shepherd and held small lambs safely was called a "bosom").  That sling was not a permanent dwelling place, it was a place of safety until they were mature enough to walk on their own.

And there was a great gulf between Abraham's bosom and Hell. (Where the rich man was CONSCIOUS, THIRSTY, SEEING, HEARING, REMEMBERING AND TORMENTED ... doesn't sound like a place where the sinner is immediately burned up, does it?) ... This is not a parable ... Jesus didn't start it out by saying "the [whatever] is like ..."  (his cue to us that this is a metaphor for something else)  He said, "THERE WAS A CERTAIN RICH MAN ..."  Now, unless he is a liar, this really happened.  Argue all you want, Jesus is clear that this was a real event. 

I know the thought of Hell can be a frightening thought but it exists and Jesus has said many things about Hell and we need to stop skipping around like mindless lunatics singing, "it can't be so, it can't be so, it can't be so so it can't be!" and admit that God has given us directions, He has given us warnings and He wants us to come to Him and repent of our bullheadedness and begin to listen to and live by TRUTH.

__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Where are the scriptures to support your idea???

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

Paradise is NOT a part of hell.  Paradise is a separate HOLDING AREA (now empty) for those who were believers who died before Jesus came to earth and died for their sins. (A place to hold those who trusted God but had not yet had their sins washed away by the death and resurrection of Christ).

__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Thank you engraftedone, for you post, I appreciate the straight forwardness of your thought process, and I agree with eveything the bible says about the spirit of God.

I would like to comment again on Lazarus and the rich man.  Why would Jesus make the statement that Joh 3:13 

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,eventhe Son of man which is in heaven.

and then take some place call paradise that is part of hell to heaven?  I can't see the logic here, nor can I find scriptures to back it up.  If Jesus said no one has gone to heaven, then I believe Him, no one has gone to heaven.  What I think people are doing here is taking one story and making it say what they want it to say, and not considering that there just might be an explanation for it that does not make Jesus a liar?

Back to the other issue that was raised, the resurrection, and where do the dead in Christ go? And where do the dead that have not received Christ go?

The postings have used Luke 16 quite extensively. One individual went to Abrahams Bosom (Paradise, which at that time was a division of hell with a great gulf between where Lazarus was, and where the rich man was). The rich man could see Lazarus and the blessedness that Lazarus had, and realize the torment that he (the rich man) was in. 

Part of the issue is this: both of these men were physically dead. Yet, their senses were active, and they were cognizant of their surroundings. Their spirit must have been alive or active, true?

This is the same Paradise (when it was a division, or compartment of hell) Please show me this scriptures) that Jesus was referring to, to the thief on the cross.

I believe that the story is about the future, after the resurrections have taken place, because as you say, there are three distinct resurrections.  When the rich man was resurrected in the third resurrection, (the third resurrection being reserved for the condemned to the lake of fire), and seeing what was about to happen to him, he could see Lazarus with Abraham (who had been resurrected in the first resurrection when Christ returned).  Lazarus was already a spirit being as was Abraham, and the rich man was resurrected to a physicl body that could be destroyed in the lake of fire, remember, spirit can not be destroyed, so God is not going to allow anyone in rebellion to Him to become spirit.  Remember what happen to Lucifer.  He will be in torment forever, because spirit can not be destroyed, and that is not what God wants.

After Jesus resurrection, He took Paradise from the lower part of the earth, hell, and moved it to heaven, the realm in which Christ Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Heavenly Father. This is where believers who experience physical death go now, to be present with the Lord which is far better, as Paul wrote. He (Paul) also reiterated to another group that he was in a strait (hard pressed for a decision) between two, having a desire to depart (physically die) and to be present with Jesus, or to stay here which was needful for the people that he (Paul) was writing to.

I also believe that what Paul is describing here is his desire to get past the struggles he was experiencing. 
Php 1:21 
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Php 1:22 
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. Php 1:23 

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Php 1:24 

Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Php 1:25 

And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Php 1:26 

That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

Paul did not have an easy life.  He was the apostle assigned to the gentiles and he also had an infirmity that he had ask God to heal, but God told him His grace was sufficient.
2Co 12:8 

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2Co 12:9 

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2Co 12:10 

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.  

Paul knew that he could do the brethern more good by living and bring them to Christ, even though he would have perferred to depart this life, because he understood that his next moment of conciousness would be the resurrection and with Christ and without the infirmities.  This also squares with what Christ said that no man has ascended into heaven.  When we die, it is like sleep.  It is often mentioned in the bible that the dead sleep, or the dead rest.  Even David, a man after God own heart has not ascended into heaven. Act 2:29 

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act 2:35 

Until I make thy foes thy footstool. David spoke of  God the Father saying to Jesus Christ, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thy foes thy footstool.
But their next moment of conciousness will be a resurrection to eternal life or to judgment before God,  or to eternal death in the lake of fire, where the rich man was going.  The most important thing to remember is what our Saviour Jesus Christ taught.  He set the example of how we are to life our lives.  He is our example, He is the light and the truth.

I hope you will reply.  I have enjoyed the discussion.


But their next moment of conciousness will be a resurrection to eternal life or to judgment before God,  or to eternal death in the lake of fire, where the rich man was going.  The most important thing to remember is what our Saviour Jesus Christ taught.  He set the example of how we are to life our lives.  He is our example, He is the light and the truth.

I hope you will reply.  I have enjoyed the discussion.



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

 Here are some more power references:

Acts 1: 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. King James Version (KJV)

8But you shall receive power (ability, efficiency, and might) when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the ends (the very bounds) of the earth. Amplified Bible (AMP)

When were they supposed to receive power? After the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) is come upon you

Romans 15:
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. 

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. King James Version (KJV)

13and the God of the hope shall fill you with all joy and peace in the believing, for your abounding in the hope in power of the Holy Spirit. Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19in power of signs and wonders, in power of the Spirit of God; so that I, from Jerusalem, and in a circle as far as Illyricum, have fully preached the good news of the Christ; Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Romans 1:  3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Some other things to ponder about God,  and the Holy Spirit

1 Peter 1:15-16 

 15But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I Am holy. King James Version (KJV)

John 4:24 

 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

By reading these two verses together, (yes, they are from different books of the Bible, but they are discussing God), we can see that God is a Spirit, and that He is Holy. Correct?

Hence, we could say Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead that dwells in us, and quickens our mortal bodies.

Back to the other issue that was raised, the resurrection, and where do the dead in Christ go? And where do the dead that have not received Christ go?

The postings have used Luke 16 quite extensively. One individual went to Abrahams Bosom (Paradise, which at that time was a division of hell with a great gulf between where Lazarus was, and where the rich man was). The rich man could see Lazarus and the blessedness that Lazarus had, and realize the torment that he (the rich man) was in.

Part of the issue is this: both of these men were physically dead. Yet, their senses were active, and they were cognizant of their surroundings. Their spirit must have been alive or active, true?

This is the same Paradise (when it was a division, or compartment of hell) that Jesus was referring to, to the thief on the cross.

After Jesus resurrection, He took Paradise from the lower part of the earth, hell, and moved it to heaven, the realm in which Christ Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Heavenly Father. This is where believers who experience physical death go now, to be present with the Lord which is far better, as Paul wrote. He (Paul) also reiterated to another group that he was in a strait (hard pressed for a decision) between two, having a desire to depart (physically die) and to be present with Jesus, or to stay here which was needful for the people that he (Paul) was writing to.

Some of this has been written by others before, but, it seems that the subject is still needed, and sometimes we all can learn best from repetition.

This issue is vastly different than the resurrections that will be taking place. The first resurrection Jesus being raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of the Father, the next resurrection is when Jesus returns at the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise (the physical bodies) and we which are alive and remain are caught up in the air with them and changed in the twinkling of an eye (the giving and reception of our glorified body, when we shall be like Jesus glorified body), then we shall rule and reign with Jesus for a thousand years after the battle of Armageddon,  then after the millennium, the final resurrection, and the Great White Throne judgment. I think this is the way that the Bible gives it.

I hope this is helpful, and thought provoking as the posts have been for me.

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by engraftedone on Thursday 6th of May 2010 03:39:37 PM

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Zeke25,

Did you see the scriptures that Engraphedone posted?  Any comments?

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Can you show me the scriptures that describe paradise as a holding place for the old testament saints?  I would really like to see that. 

Luk 23:43 

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

As you can see here, the "punctuation" is in the wrong place, because Jesus was taken to the tomb that day, and wasn't resurrected until three nights and three days later.  Is the tomb paradise?

It becomes perfectly clear if you move the comma and place it  after "To day".  Then it would read correctly.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. 

Jesus was speaking to the "thief" that day about a future time.

But of course I'm not going to change your mind, but that's OK.

And again, wouldn't you think that if you can't get your mind around a subject, that you would need to study it some more?  I didn't mention anything about how much studying you had done, but if I don't understand something, I try to study it until I do.  Makes sense to me.  That's why I continue to study, you are right, I don't understand everything in the bible.  By the way, I believe that this is the later time you speak of.  I believe God is making known the things that were sealed up in Daniels day and Johns day.  We are understanding and seeing  more and more prophesys come to pass.  I believe this is the time of the end that Jesus spoke of.

Don't forget to show me those scriptures about paradise being the holding place for old testament saints.  Thank you. 



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

"Christ Himself didn't go to heaven until after three days, so it would have been very hard for the theif to have been with Christ in heaven that day."  Again, Jesus didn't SAY "this day you will be with me in Heaven" .. He SAID "ToDAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."  Period.
Paradise isn't Heaven ... and Jesus made it clear that the thief (I before E, dear) would be with him IN PARADISE.  The holding place for old testament saints.  I won't change my mind about that so don't even try.

"What is wrong with my suggestion to study more"  It isn't what you said it's the way you said it, "If you can't explain the triune, then I suggest you study it some more."  You have no idea how much studying of Scriptures I've done on this subject or any other.  You have no right to assume that I haven't studied it.  NO one ... NO one ... not even the great and mighty  all-knowing Wyle ... knows and understands everything in the Bible.  You know how I know that?  Because the Scriptures clearly say that some things are sealed up until a later time.  Because the Lord Jesus Himself said, "I have much more I need to tell you but you cannot bear it right now." (a paraphrase of John 16:12)

Tone down your judgementalism and your superiority complex, your arrogance and your language.  Then, who knows? I might even grow to like you.


-- Edited by wordworker on Thursday 6th of May 2010 08:14:56 AM

__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

I appoligize for the way I come across to you, I don't mean to be offensive.  Again, please forgive me.
The punctuation of the Scripture where Jesus is saying to the theif on the cross has to be incorrect, (man's punctuation) because it contradicts other scriptures in the bible, and the bible can not contradict itself.  Man can twist it to say whatever he wants it to say, but then what is the point of that?  Is that going to get you any brownie points with God?  No, and you can not learn anything either.  All I am saying is that you have to put the scriptures together correctly for it to be benificial to YOUR relationship with God.  It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it, is it improving YOUR relationship with God, or just going along with whatever the group you belong to says it means?  The scriptures teach that No man has ascended into heaven except He Who came down from heaven.  Christ Himself didn't go to heaven until after three days, so it would have been very hard for the theif to have been with Christ in heaven that day.

What is wrong with my suggestion to study more about something you said you could not wrap you mind around.  I don't understand your offense at that.  We all need to study more, not just that subject, but the entire bible.  I use these discussions for study.  It makes me dig in and search and study the bible in order to give an answer.  I am sorry if the answer disagrees with what you understand, but that is no reason to take offense.  If you disagree with what I say, then give my your thoughts on the subject, but please make sure that they agree with what the bible really says.  They don't have to agree with what anyone else says.  We all may have understanding in an area others do not.

Zeke25 was asking if I could show him the scriptures about the Holy Spirit being the Power of God.  I was at work and did not have the time to research that again, I have already proven that to myself, but Engraftedone did a wonderful job of coming to the rescue on that.  The scripture that were presented were very clear to me that the Holy Spirit is the power of God.  I beleive the Holy Spirit is what gives God's children the ability to understand the word of God.  It is an amazing book, so enjoy it.



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Thank you.  That very clear to me!

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Date:
Permalink  
 

The following is presented for thoughtful discourse and discussion. It is not intended to try and PROVE this or that. It is prayerfully submitted and presented with the Scriptures to try and help each of us learn something. I have read the other postings, and would like to submit these (Please forgive the length)  

The following verses are from Jesus speaking to some disciples, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they were endued with POWER from on High.  What was the POWER that they were endued with?  Read the following verse from Acts 2: 4. It would seem to be pretty clear that the disciples in the upper room (there were about 120 of them, this number is listed in Acts 1) were endued with POWER from on High after that the Holy Ghost came on them. The speaking in tongues was not and is not the only thing that the Holy Ghost is for. The speaking in tongues was a physical evidence if you will, along with some other things that transpired. I say this like this because I know some people who speak an unknown tongue and I know that the person DOES NOT drink alcohol, so the person could not be accused of being full of new wine or as Peter said, these are not drunken as you suppose ( and then in Acts 2: 33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Luke 24: (KJV)  46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 
 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 
 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 
 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 
 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

(AMPLIFIED)

46 And said to them, Thus it is written that the Christ (the Messiah) should suffer and on the third day rise from (among) the dead,  
47 And that repentance [with a view to and as the condition of] forgiveness of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 
 48 You are witnesses of these things. 
 49 And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high. 
 50 Then He conducted them out as far as Bethany, and, lifting up His hands, He invoked a blessing on them.

Acts 2:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

On the other issue about whether there is a trinity or not, the Bible DOES NOT have the word trinity in it. The trinity teaching came about in approximately 325 A.D. at the council of Nicea, (mans doctrine).  We should let the Bible speak for itself.  Has anyone every thought of the reason why Paul, when he would write a letter (epistle) that he would write: Grace be unto through God, the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christor words similar to this?  Why didnt he mention the Holy Ghost?

 

Here is a question to ponder: WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD?

 

Acts 2: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.  

 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.  (these verses say that GOD RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD?)

In Romans 8: 11 But if the Spirit of HIM that raised up  Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (KJV)

Now in the APLIFIED BIBLE: 11 And ifthe Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.

the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead God raised Jesus according to what Peter preached.

And then read what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost to the crowd. Acts 2: 17, 18
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 
 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Who said He would pour out of  His Spirit? (God)

These postings were thought provoking, and hopefully this will be too.

 

 



-- Edited by engraftedone on Wednesday 5th of May 2010 04:50:20 PM

__________________


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

I don't find you a terrible person because you disagree with me.
I don't care for you very much because you HIDE YOUR AFFILLIATION WITH whichever CULT YOU ARE ATTACHED TO!
Another reason I don't care very much about you is because you always seem to claim some SPECIAL relationship with the Scriptures ...
lines like, "If you can't explain the triune, then I suggest you study it some more." And, " You need to read the scripture as they are with the correct punctuation." (btw, the Hebrews didn't USE a lot of punctuation so ... who's punctuation is "correct?") are very offensive and suggest that you know more than anyone else about Scripture and YOU RECOMMEND that others "study the Scriptures more" so we can "get it right".  That's a very arrogant attitude and NO I DON'T LIKE IT.;


__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Zeke25,

It is clear that we can not have a discussion about the bible or our beliefs.  You believe one thing and I believe another.  Isn't it great we can still do that.  I don't really think we will be able to for much longer.  Anyway, yes I keep the Sabbath.  For a good study on that, there is an article written by a Catholic Cardinal back in 1893 call "Roman Challenge to the Protestants". It pretty mush explains where Sunday got started and you can find it by google.  It is very revealing.  Of course if you don't want to do that, that's fine too.  I don't think you will find any scripture in the bible that supports any day other than the Sabbath, and the Jews have been keeping it ever since they came out of Egypt, so it is clear knowledge what day the Sabbath falls on no matter what calender you want to use, the day has not been lost.  Every one knows what day Sunday falls on.  There is a calculated Hebrew calender that I go by, but that is just me. You go by any calender you want to. 

You keep asking me if I can show you scriptures for the Holy Spirit being the Power of God, not just simply the power of God, but the POWER OF GOD.  No I can't show you the scriptures.  Now if you want to say Aha!  told you so, go right ahead, but if you really want the answers to your questions, go to God through His word and truly seek Him and be willing to change if He answers you.  I'm sorry you find me such a terrible person, because I believe differently than you do, please forgive me

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Date:
Sabbath Keeping?
Permalink  
 


Wyle,

It doesn't appear that you desire to engage the discussion with sincerity. Here are four sincere questions that I asked you in my previous post. They are not rhetorical questions, they are serious questions. Your position is shown to be unsupportable by Scripture because of your failure to address these questions and requests for Scriptural support.

"The Holy Spirit is the great power of God." Can you support this statement with a Scripture reference?

Where in Scripture does it say or teach that the Holy Spirit is merely the Father's power?

Since you claim the Comforter is simply the spirit of God, then when Yahoshua is referred to as a Comforter in 1 John 2:1, then you would believe that Yahoshua is simply the spirit of God as well. Is this the case, is this what you believe?

So what's it going to be? Is Yahoshua the Son or is He simply the spirit of God?

Nevertheless, I will attempt to engage you on a new topic that you just brought up. If you are not serious about this topic, it will be quickly revealed. If you have a teachable spirit that will be reveal. If you do not, then your relationship with the one true God will be highly suspect.

Hi Zeke25,

You may believe anything you want to believe. You asked me a question in your original post and I answered it.  Who is shooting the messenger? I am not shooting a messenger, I ask for Scriptural support from you for your position and you have been unable to provide it. If you didn't want an answer, then why post the question? I am still waiting for your answers. But your attention span is now wandering, so I'm ready to move onto the next topic you just brought up. It is obvious that I am not going to change your mind about anything, you will have to do that. Of course I am not going to change my mind because you have a different opinion with no Scriptural support. Give me Scripture that supports your position and I will consider it. But you can't, because there is none. You seem to think that I have always believed the things I believe now. I have made no such assumption, you are confusing this conversation with those you have had in the past with others on other sites. I'm trying to give you a fresh start, leave you baggage behind. I use to be on the other side until I had more questions than I did answers and started to study the bible myself and not take some one else's word for it. If you truly seek God and want to know HIS truths, He will show them to you. Too many people want to tell God what they are going to believe and how they are going to worship Him. It doesn't work that way. The bible lays it out very clearly what we are to believe and how we are to worship God. He gives us HIS commandments, statutes and judgments, and that is what we are to follow. The world has said NO, I don't want to follow your way, I am going to worship you with Sunday, Easter, Christmas and every other pagan thing they can come up with. I just choose to worship God the way HE Commands in the bible. I keep HIS Sabbath, (Here's a good new topic). and I keep HIS Holy Days. I don't keep them perfectly, but I keep trying and repenting when I stumble, but I believe I am stumbling in the light now and not in the darkness. God tells us that the truth will make us free. It does. Have a great day

Why do you keep the sabbath? It is not a commandment from Yahoshua in the New Testament. Do you keep all the laws? Do you know when the sabbath is? It is the seventh day of each week in the Bible calendar - not the pagan calendars of the modern Hebrews nor the pagan calendar of Pope Gregory. This is Wednesday May 5, 2010 on Gregory's calendar. It is also Wednesday Iyar 21, 5770 on the modern Hebrew calendar. But on the Bible calendar today is the 7th day of the 5th complete week as we count our way to Shavaot. Shavaot lands on Friday May 21, 2010 on Gregory's calendar this year. 5/21/10 is also the first day of the Feast of Weeks (that's why we are counting the weeks), aka Feast of Harvest, and for the Christians it will be Pentacost. So, are you taking your weekly sabbath today? I am not. I do not keep the sabbath at all. The Bible teaches me that I do not have to. I also don't keep a Sunday as a special day either. I worship and revere my Father 24/7.

Zeke25

-- Edited by zeke25 on Wednesday 5th of May 2010 11:32:00 AM

__________________


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
RE: Larry King Interview with Joel Osteen
Permalink  
 


The way you assume you know everything there is to know about the Bible amuses me.

YOU are the only person who knows the Bible, studies the Bible or knows how to interpret from culture to culture!  It's amazing.

"I use to be on the other side until I had more questions than I did answers and started to study the bible myself and not take some one else's word for it".   I might believe this statement except your "study" has obviously been under the guidance of the Jehovah's Witnesses.  You go on to denigrate Christmas, Easter, and everything else the JWs hate!  True ... the birth of Christ wasn't on Dec. 25 ... and Easter isn't an exact remembrance of the Resurrection.  But everything from the Old Testament are shadows of things to come.  Passover is the foreshadowing of the Perfect Lamb (Jesus) sacrificed for our sins, for example.

If you aren't JW then there is only one other group you might be associated with ... you are a remnant of the Worldwide Church of God (unrepentant).  I know the main board and body of WCOG came into the truth after the death of their foul founder in the early '90s but many chose to continue in that abomination they call a church.

"The bible teaches that we must take line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little and put it together to rightly divide the word of God."
The idea that we can clip a little bit of  Scripture from here and paste it together with a little bit of Scripture from there is so dangerous I can't believe you actually think THAT is what this Scripture is saying!  LINE UPON LINE ... in other words, don't just take a single line of Scripture but read the surrounding text to find what it really means.  PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT means to build your doctrine from what scholars have built up over centuries of study.
If we each decide we can take a little bit from here and connect it to a little bit from there and we can get things like proof that women need to wear long hair and wear it down rather than up in a bun, "top not come down" (the verse really says, "let him who is on the house top not come down.")  Or how about, "and Peter said, 'I know him not!' Go thou and do likewise." 
Another thing I said was that you weren't aware of cultural differences and I stand by that.  For example the OT Scripture that is enclosed in phylacteries and on Mezzuzahs, "Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." (in Hebrew, "Schm'a oYsrael, Adonai eluhenu, Adonai echad!" ... )  sounds like a perfect scripture to refute the trinity doesn't it?  Trouble is, the word "Adonai" is a PLURAL word ... so, literally, the correct reading is, "Hear, oh Israel, the Lord our GODS the Lord is One."
And "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."  Again, the word for God in this passage, "Elohim", is a PLURAL ... so, "In the beginning, Gods created the heavens and the earth."

So, if you're going to come onto this board and start acting like you have all the answers ... you're right and everyone else (including scholars through the ages) is stupid or doesn't know how to study Scriptures correctly ... you'd better be able to speak Hebrew like a native, read Greek like an Athenian and have the knowledge of Ancient Israeli culture like an anthropolgist!

Otherwise, come here in humility.  Offer your viewpoint and listen to what others have to say without implying that they are stupid or don't study the Word.  Come here and enjoy sharing views without arrogance and anger ... that is why we're here.  We don't come here to be slandered, put down, lectured or condescended to.  If you can't come here in a spirit of love, then, please ... don't come here. evileye




__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Hi Zeke25,

You may believe anything you want to believe.  You asked me a question in your original post and I answered it.  Who is shooting the messenger?  If you didn't want an answer, then why post the question?  It is obvious that I am not going to change your mind about anything, you will have to do that.  You seem to think that I have always believed the things I believe now.  I use to be on the other side until I had more questions than I did answers and started to study the bible myself and not take some one else's word for it.  If you truly seek God and want to know HIS truths, He will show them to you.  Too many people want to tell God what they are going to believe and how they are going to worship Him.  It doesn't work that way.  The bible lays it out very clearly what we are to believe and how we are to worship God.  He gives us HIS commandments, statutes and judgments, and that is what we are to follow.  The world has said NO, I don't want to follow your way, I am going to worship you with Sunday, Easter, Christmas and every other pagan thing they can come up with.  I just choose to worship God the way HE Commands in the bible.  I keep HIS Sabbath, and I keep HIS Holy Days.  I don't keep them perfectly, but I keep trying and repenting when I stumble, but I believe I am stumbling in the light now and not in the darkness.  God tells us that the truth will make us free.  It does. Have a great day

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Faith in what?  Anything? Everything?  One must know with no doubts what they believe or they will fall for just about anything.  If you can't explain the triune, then I suggest you study it some more.  The bible also says we must always be able to give an answer, it helps if we know what we are answering.  Don't take my statements as a bad attitude, if you can prove to me from the scriptures that God is a three person triune, then I will change.  The problem is, you can't because that is not what the bible teaches.  Show me where I have made a wrong statement from scriptures and I will repent, but don't base your answer on one scripture and expect me to accept it.  Read my post of yesterday.  The Word of God has to be rightly divided and put together.  I'm sorry if you are offended at what I say, but everything I have answered is from the bible, studied and researched for many years.  I don't accept what men teach unless it is from the bible.  Jesus had the same problem in His time here on earth.
Joh 10:32 

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

While the Forgotten Word Message Forum is definitively a Trinitarian board, I admit that I have never quite been able to wrap my mind around a "Three-Person-One-God" God.

So I will not debate this subject.  I am glad, however, to see that there is at least one other person on here that feels competent to address this issue.

At the same time, I DO want to address Wyle about his overall attitude.

Whatever your pose on this site, I can tell by your approach to the Scriptures and the doctrine you are pushing here, that you do NOT share any orthodox views of Christianity.  Instead, you're espousing many of the doctrines of the Watchtower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses).  You also seem to find a great deal of enthusiasm for questioning other people's Scriptural knowledge.  I would appreciate it if you would tone down the argumentative attitude, and the accusatory tone of your posts.

Jesus is EQUAL to God the Father, the Holy Spirit is EQUAL to Jesus, the FATHER knows everything that all three persons of the Trinity have done, are doing or will do.

Jesus is eternal just like the Father from eternity before time into eternity future.  So is the Holy Spirit.  I can't argue the way it works because I'm one of those folks that have to take it on faith ... but then, that's exactly what Paul said all Christians must do ... "The Just will LIVE BY FAITH."



__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Date:
Permalink  
 

Wyle wrote:

"Have you ever considered the consequences of what you believe."

I haven't a clue what consequences you are talking about. I have merely pointed out to you what a Scripture says. Take it up with the Holy Spirit. Your concerns are with Him, not me. Thanks for shooting the messenger.


"If The Holy Spirit were another God person, that would make the Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus Christ instead of God the Father!  Think about that."

I have thought about it. But God hasn't revealed all the mysterious ways He works to me. Maybe He has to you. But since Mt. 1:20 says in part - For that in her is fathered by the Holy Spirit - and other Scriptures state that the Yahowah is the Father of Yahoshua, that is what He wants me to know right now. How He does it all is not my responsibility to figure out. He teaches us a Trinity, so I accept His teachings.


"The Holy Spirit is the great power of God."

Can you support this statement with a Scripture reference? My KJ must be deficient, because I cannot find a Scripture that teaches this.


"It is also neuter in gender in the original Greek and Hebrew." I would need an example or two of this to believe it. Because there are a lot of Scriptures that contradict your assumptions. For example, "

Psalm 51:11 KJV, "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."   David didn't plead with the Father not to leave him, he pleaded with the Father not to take the Holy Spirit away from him. The Father is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit is a spirit. David only received a measure of the Holy Spirit. Yahoshua received Him without measure.John 3:34 KJV, For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.


"Mat 1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What the angel is saying to Joseph is that God the Father, through His Holy Spirit, His power"

No, this is not what this Scripture says. It does not say, as you contend, "His power". You have added that to Scripture. Where is Scripture does it say or teach that the Holy Spirit is merely the Father's power? I can't find that in the Bible.


"has impregnated Mary and she has conceived Jesus the Christ.

If God was a triune, then the Holy Spirit would be the Father of Jesus Christ!! The Holy Spirit is simply the spirit of God, the power of God."

The rest of your statement makes no sense in the light of my explanations above. I have never heard of "a triune", what is that supposed to be, except a term of disrespect for God. Since the way God reveals Himself in the Bible is so offensive to your preconceived ideas of how the universe should be constructed and run, then I guess you feel that it is okay to be disrespectful back. You are treading on thin ice with a God more powerful than you imagine. I don't want to be in your shoes.



"You can believe in a trinity if you want to, but the bible is pretty clear on who the Father of Jesus is.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. The comforter is simply the spirit of God."

Since you claim the Comforter is simply the spirit of God, then when Yahoshua is referred to as a Comforter in 1 John 2:1, then you would believe that Yahoshua is simply the spirit of God as well. Is this the case, is this what you believe?

1 John 2:1 KJV, "

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. The word advocate is Strong's G3875 parakletos, which is the same word used for Comforter. Face it, parakletos is the same term used for the Holy Spirit and it is the same term used for Yahoshua. So what's it going to be? Is Yahoshua the Son or is He simply the spirit of God?


"Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Mat 15:13

But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Do you see any third party here?  All I see is God the Father and Jesus Christ.  Notice Mat 15:13.  If you are not grounded firmly in the truth, you will be rooted up and thrown into the lake of fire.  Don't take one verse and build a case out of it."

No one has taken one verse and built a case out of it.  In my original post to you I said, "Here is one place". Obviously you either didn't read that, or you think I am lying and I gave you the only place. If this is representative of your attention to detail when reading the Bible, we can see why you are drawing faulty conclusions.

Zeke25


The bible teaches that we must take line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little and put it together to rightly divide the word of God.


Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Better check out that gender thing too!!!








-- Edited by zeke25 on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 09:06:55 PM


-- Edited by wordworker on Tuesday 4th of May 2010 10:21:20 PM

__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

Zeke25,

Have you ever considered the consequences of what you believe.  If The Holy Spirit were another God person, that would make the Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus Christ instead of God the Father!  Think about that.  The Holy Spirit is the great power of God.  It is also neuter in gender in the original Greek and Hebrew.
Mat 1:20 

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What the angel is saying to Joseph is that God the Father, through His Holy Spirit, His power, has impregnated Mary and she has conceived Jesus the Christ.

If God was a triune, then the Holy Spirit would be the Father of Jesus Christ!! The Holy Spirit is simply the spirit of God, the power of God.

You can believe in a trinity if you want to, but the bible is pretty clear on who the Father of Jesus is.
Mat 7:21 
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. The comforter is simply the spirit of God.Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Mat 15:13 

But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Do you see any third party here?  All I see is God the Father and Jesus Christ.  Notice Mat 15:13.  If you are not grounded firmly in the truth, you will be rooted up and thrown into the lake of fire.  Don't take one verse and build a case out of it.  The bible teaches that we must take line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little and put it together to rightly divide the word of God.


Isa 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Better check out that gender thing too!!!



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Date:
Permalink  
 

Wyle,
Did I read it somewhere that you said there is no Trinity? The Bible teaches that God is a Triune God. Here is one place:

Comforter (Strong's G3875 parakletos) is used for the Holy Ghost four times (John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7) in the King James New Testament to describe the Holy Ghost and one time (1 John 2:1) to describe Yahoshua the Christ. When Parakletos is used to describe the Holy Ghost it is translated as Comforter. For example, in John 14:16 KJV, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (Strong's G3875 parakletos), that he may abide with you for ever."

Here the Son is praying to the Father and praying for the Holy Ghost to take His place on Earth.

Zeke25



__________________


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

Through reading these, there are actually two different issues being discussed. As the Bible states about us, human beings, we are a tri-part being. That is we are spirit, soul, and body. In Eccl. 12 there is a verse that says that when the body dies it returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God who made it. This is in the O.T.(old covenant), how much more so now that we can be saved by accepting Jesus in the New Covenant, Salvation.

(the verse is listed later)

 

And the other issue of who has ascended to heaven already.  The Bible is clear in its references that Jesus descended from Heaven (HIS EARTHLY LIFE AND MINISTRY), then He ascended back to Heaven. When He (Jesus) did this He also took what is referenced as Paradise, Abrahams Bosom back to Heaven with Him. The people in this place known as Paradise were not in their physical body. We, along with them will get anew body, what is called a glorified body when the trumpet of God sounds, and we which are alive and remain are caught up in the air with the dead in Christ who shall rise first.

 

If we read Hebrews 12, we see that we are compassed about with a great cloud of witnesses. Who are these witnesses? (remember the Bible was divided into chapter and verse for ease of referencing) Some of the witnesses are notated for us in chap. 11, here are some that are listed by name and reference to what they did to be listed in the Hall of Faith:  ABEL, ENOCH (translated by God, and did not see death), NOAH, ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB, SARAH, JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, CALEB (the two faithful spies that Moses sent out), RAHAB, GIDEON, BARAK, SAMSON, DAVID, SAMUEL AND THE PROPHETS, DANIEL (stopped the mouth of lions), SHADRACH, MESCHACH, and ABEDNEGO (quenched the violence of fire) [THIS IS HOW IT IS WORDED IN THE BOOK OF HEBREWS] AND THERE ARE NUMEROUS OTHERS REFERENCHED THAT ARE NOT, BUT WHAT THEY DID IS NOTATED.         

 

These are the great cloud of witnesses. Where are these witnesses? They were in Paradise, Abrahams Bosom that had been a portion of hell, now they are in Heaven, since Jesus took Paradise to Heaven with Him.

 

As for the Book of Luke, Jesus told the one, TODAY YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. There is no contradiction in terms. JESUS SAID IT, and Jesus NEVER LIES!

 

One thing that must be remembered when reading these, and other issues like this, we are first and foremost spiritual beings. The Bible states that we are: spirit, soul, and body. And the issues being blogged are: Physical Death (what we on earth experience) and what happens. Then there is the issue of who goes or has gone to Heaven. Physically, Jesus went to Heaven and is seated at the Right Hand of the Heavenly Father. Then there are those in Heaven (including BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS NOW, read Ephesians 2, it says have been made to sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus [as part of the Body of Christ], dont know about you, but my head and my body are inseparable, this can be read in Ephesians 1: Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is His body.) What has happened to us spiritually.

 

When we (on earth) experience physical death, what happens? Have any read about Stephen? What happened to him when he was stoned to death? What did he say?

Acts 7:59 Amplified Bible (AMP)

59 And while they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, Lord Jesus, receive and accept and welcome my spirit!

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Amplified Bible (AMP)

7 Then shall the dust [out of which God made man's body] return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it.

Then with the redundancy of repeating what has already been submitted, but, is in the Bible for our learning:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The NASB version has these Scriptures presented like this:

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--

 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--

 8 we are of good courage, I say, and (C)prefer rather to be absent from the body and (D)to be at home with the Lord.

And Phil. 1: 20 24  (KJV)

20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The AMPLIFIED Bible presents these verses like this:

20This is in keeping with my own eager desire and persistent expectation and hope, that I shall not disgrace myself nor be put to shame in anything; but that with the utmost freedom of speech and unfailing courage, now as always heretofore, Christ (the Messiah) will be magnified and get glory and praise in this body of mine and be boldly exalted in my person, whether through (by) life or through (by) death.

    21 For me to live is Christ [His life in me], and to die is gain [the gain of the glory of eternity].

    22 If, however, it is to be life in the flesh and I am to live on here, that means fruitful service for me; so I can say nothing as to my personal preference [I cannot choose],

    23 But I am hard pressed between the two. My yearning desire is to depart (to be free of this world, to set forth) and be with Christ, for that is far, far better;

    24 But to remain in my body is more needful and essential for your sake.

As can be seen from what Paul wrote, he desired to depart (his inner man, the spirit of man) and be present with Jesus because it is far better. Where is Jesus? He is in Heaven seated at the right hand of the Father. Why would Paul state that he desired to die physically and then state that he would be present with the Lord?

These verses give us something to learn about what happens when we die physically now. In the book of James it says that the body without the spirit is dead. Where does the spirit go? If it is a born again, saved, son of God it goes to be with Him. If it is a sinner (one who has not accepted Jesus, i.e.: believed in the heart and confessed with the mouth the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus) then that spirit goes to wherever in hell.

When Jesus returns and the believers who are alive, that are caught up with the dead in Christ (whose physical bodies) shall rise first and be rejoined with their spirits and then changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (when we get our glorified body, such as Jesus has). For a description see the Scripture when Jesus said, a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have. This was after He unto the disciples were without using the door.

And also, it can be read that Elijah, the prophet MUST be in heaven. He appeared on the mount with MOSES, and the disciples that were with Jesus wanted to build a tabernacle to them (Moses, Elijah, and Jesus).



__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

   1 Corinthians 15:23

(23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

 
pixel.gif

 

I Corinthians 15:23 describes an order of resurrections. Revelation 20:5-6 picks up the thread:

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

As Christians, we focus on this first resurrection; it is our hope and prayer to be raised from the dead or changed at the return of Christ (I Corinthians 15:50-52; I Thessalonians 4:17). If we are converted now and our judgment is now, other resurrections have no personal impact on us.

The next resurrection in God's order is the second resurrection. Though not specifically named as such in the Bible, it is described in numerous places. John alludes to it in Revelation 20:5: "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." Thus, it occurs at the end of the Millennium. Ezekiel describes it as a physical resurrection for all those who have lived through the ages and not had a full opportunity at salvation (Ezekiel 37:1-14). Revelation 20:11 calls it the Great White Throne Judgment, when the dead are raised to be "judged according to their works" (verse 12).

Verses 13-15 describe the final or third resurrection in this order of resurrections:

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jude shows that some in his day had rejected God and, after dying, would be awaiting the Lake of Fire at the final judgment (verses 7-13). This final judgment, also called "the second death," is on those of all time periods who have rejected God and will not repent.



__________________
Wyle Marshall


Lifelong Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 259
Date:
Permalink  
 

Preach it, Victorious. biggrin

__________________
"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3
Joyce


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

the verses presented were to show where the inner man, the spirit of man goes when the body and the spirit of man separate (physical death, what man experiences now). 

in book of Thessalonians there is given us instruction that states when Jesus comes back at the sound of the trump, that the "dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the air. and then we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, so shall we ever be with the Lord." Then there is the instruction that tells us that we are not as Jesus is now (possessing a glorified body) but that we shall be like him. The iScriptures about the subjects presented is read as information on the subjects, (NOT DOCTRINAL dissertations) then there is no contradictions, and JESUS NEVER LIED about anything.

For example, there is information given from the Apostle Paul about a man who went and saw the third heaven, Paul stated whether in the body or out of the body Paul did not know, but God knows. Then Paul wrote about being alive on the earth, caused him (his inner man) to be absent with the Lord.

Then there is information about the different compartments that were in hell. Paradise is no longer a part of hell, because Jesus took Paradise out of hell, the Word states that Jesus led captivity captive (this was the place noted as "Abraham's Bosom in the book of Luke),  and ascended back to the Father after Jesus was raised from the dead.

What were the contradictions? Again, JESUS NEVER lies, because HE CANNOT LIE! Just as it is impossible for GOD to tell a lie.


__________________


Great Friend of the Ministry

Status: Offline
Posts: 30
Date:
Permalink  
 

You have contradictions here that make Jesus Christ a liar.  You are not rightly dividing the word of God.

__________________
Wyle Marshall


Active Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 

Here is some Scripture that tells us what happens when we die and leave our earthly, temporal body 

2 Cor. 5: 6 8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 
 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 
 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Phil. 1: 20 24

 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 
 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 
 22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 
 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 
 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Cor. 12: 1 4 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE)

1 TRUE, THERE is nothing to be gained by it, but [as I am obliged] to boast, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 
 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven. 
 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or away from the body I do not know, God knows-- 
  4 Was caught up into paradise, and he heard utterances beyond the power of man to put into words, which man is not permitted to utter.

In the Bible there can be found reference that describe five (5) compartments that hell is. They are:
The (Greek) word "tartaroo (Strongs # 5020)" is mentioned once in the Bible (KJV states it as "hell"), in the Book of Peter and it refers to the compartment where angels, who have sinned, are sent to await judgment.

2Pe 2:4

For 1063 if 1487 God 2316 spared 5339 not 3756 the angels 32 that sinned 264 , but 235 cast [them] down to hell 5020 , and delivered 3860 [them] into chains 4577 of darkness 2217, to be reserved 5083 unto 1519 judgment 2920;

Then in Luke 16:19 we are given a look at two specifice compartments - Abraham's Bosom and Sheol/Hades. Abraham's bosom isn't a compartment of hell anymore mainly because it's other name is "Paradise" and it was moved when Jesus was resurrected and is now situated in heaven, (along with all the Old Testament Saints like Abraham, David, etc). It will move once again in the future - when a new heaven and a new earth are created along with a New Jerusalem. This is the place (paradise/Abraham's Bosom) where Jesus went after He was crucified - remember he told the one thief who was crucified with Him that he would see/join Him in paradise?

Sheol/Hades, also known as the "realm of the dead" is where all sinners are headed and spend time until the White Throne Judgment. (
Luke 16:19) You will read that there's a great divide between Sheol/Hades and Abraham's bosom.

Then we have Gehenna also known as "The Lake of Fire" - this is where all sinners/unbelievers, as well as Satan are headed eventually after the great White Throne Judgment.

And last, but not least there's the Abyss or bottomless pit - assigned solely for Satan and his demons, also a temporary place until the White Throne Judgment takes place.

The final destination for the sinners/unbelievers, devil and demons:
Gehenna - (The Lake of Fire).

 

Here is the Greek word for Paradise which is PARADEISOS (Strongs # 3857), and where PARADISE is located now.

 

Luk 23:43

And 2532 Jesus 2424 said 2036 unto him 846, Verily 281 I say 3004 unto thee 4671, To day 4594 shalt thou be 2071 with 3326 me 1700 in 1722 paradise 3857.

 

2Cr 12:4

How that 3754 he was caught up 726 into 1519 paradise 3857, and 2532 heard 191 unspeakable 731 words 4487, which 3739 it is 18320 not 3756 lawful 1832 for a man 444 to utter 2980 .

 

Rev 2:7

He that hath 2192 an ear 3775, let him hear 191 what 5101 the Spirit 4151 saith 3004 unto the churches 1577; To him 846 that overcometh 3528 will I give 1325 to eat 5315 of 1537 the tree 3586 of life 2222, which 3739 is 2076 in 1722 the midst 3319 of the paradise 3857 of God


God Bless  (THE VERSES WITHOUT NOTATION ARE FROM THE KJV)

-- Edited by Victorious on Saturday 10th of April 2010 09:45:08 AM

-- Edited by Victorious on Saturday 10th of April 2010 09:47:11 AM

-- Edited by Victorious on Saturday 10th of April 2010 09:47:45 AM

__________________
1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard