The test of any man who claims to be called by God is; what does his mouth say and what do his fruits say. Man seeks to become self important through his Adam nature. When anyone can show me in God's Word that Jesus lived and flaunted the prosperity gospel that so many itching ears today love, on that day I will proclaim it also.
Christian Commando, I thank you or being a part of this discussion group. Please do me a favor though. Try to not be so harsh in your wording towards others that are discussing things. As for sitting here and "Judging" T.D. Jakes, I am not judging him. That is the business of the Lord's to do. I am judging his teachings though. As for beams in my eye....I have plenty. No one is perfect, we all have our faults and imperfections and are but frail humans. But, on this website, our purpose is to question the teachings of the various Minsitries, Preachers and Teachers against the Word of God. As an example, I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where God taught us to gather our wealth here on earth the way these preachers teach. I am of the firm belief that we are to await our reward when we go to be with Him. We are to be humble before the Lord, yet boldly stand before Him. There is a difference between being bold before the Lord and arrogant before Him.
While I encourage open discussion, I do ask for temperance towards others that come here to discuss things. If T.D. Jakes himself came here to discuss something, I would treat him with respect even though I disagree with him on so many levels. That's all I ask from all of our visitors.
Thanks and God Bless all of you for being a part of this discussion.
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
Very astute of you to bring that point up about Matt. 7:1-5. Thus, I suggest, as you people sit here and judge Pastor TD Jakes, you think about the beam in your own eyes, knowing none of us are perfect, but all have sinned and fallen short.
Thus, if continue to judge TD Jakes as such, just wait till you come before God and see how strict or leaniant he will be with you for being so picky or strict about another's faults.
As for Ministers, you must have fell asleep where Paul and Timothy declares in God's Word, some are "called" to be Apostles, Bishops, Preachers, Teachers, etc. Rom. 10:14-15, I Cor. 12:28, Ephes. 4:7-12, I Tim. 2:7, I Peter 2:24-25.
No Church Leaders of Apostle's day chosen over Churches they started ahuh. ok then, what about these, found in researching these Churches alone from back then?
* Church of Jerusalem- Apostles appointed James first, then Simeon was appointed after him.
* Church of Caesaria- Apostles appointed Zacchaus, then Corneleus was appointed after him
*Church of Antioch- Apostles appointed Euodius first, then Ignatius was appointed after him.
*Church of Alexandria- Apostles appointed Annanius first, then Avilius was appointed after him.
* Church of Ephesus- Apostles appointed Timothy first, then John- (not the Apostle), was appointed after him.
* Church of Smyrna- Apostles appointed Aristo first, then Strataeas was appointed after him.
* Church of Laodiciea- Apostles appointed Archippus first, then Phygia was appointed after him.
Don't take my word for it, go back thru historical Church records of these alone and find out for yourselves. Otherwise, your decieved to believe it was only Elders. And these Leaders were not "overseers" but the main authority over each Church, appointed by God thru the Apostles.
Now, if needed, I can share the rest of the 13 or so first Churches the Apostles started and eventually appointed Leaders over them.
Man, do you not realize Christ is the "overseer"- (Sheperd and Bishop) over the "Body of Christ? Have you not read the Scriptures where God has called and appointed each leader at every level Himself?
How do you think the Apostles chose the first Leaders, then taught them how to choose Deacons- (another "called" position in Paul's list)? By seeking God's choice in prayer and by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Just as the 11 Apostles chose the one to replace Judas.
If your gonna try and make a case here about only Elders running a Church and no Leaders- (Bishops), as in Paul's listing of "called" leadership roles over the flock by God, you'd better do some historical research into the first Churches that were started by the Apostles. Then we can discuss this more balanced with a reasonable exchange.
The simplest reasoning for the research I found, starts with Moses way back with the Jews and God leading him to appoint a head person over each of the 12 tribes for helping take care of so many problems brought up. And they in turn, were to choose others under them yet, as needed.
You know, God declares thru the Apostles, Christ did many more miracles and other things not written in this Book. But these chosen, were written that others might believe.
Well, figure the same for the Apostles. What we have of the New Test., are records of some of them that testify to Christ's Teachings and miracles by the Father, besides, the rest are an account of the Apostles in Acts, then letters of the Apostles to others.
This means, that for all the years covered of the Apostle's travels and spreading the Gosel and serving God, you can be sure, we have very little info about thier guidance by God as a "whole", but only in part for writings of them found and preserved, known as the "New Testament" today.
There were aproximately 13 major Churches found they started and who knows how many smaller ones we've not found any writings to from them as yet.
But, you can also notice, even tho the Apostle's were sent out by twos, there are only about 5-6 or 7 total of the original 12 we have writings saved and preserved from in the New Testament. Thats only half or barely over half of the original 12. Not to mention all the diverse partners each one had as time went on, they raised up and taught while traveling with them.
And the Apostle John, was one of the longest living ones, who lived in exile on Patmos till about 70-80 AD.
As such, I would ask for alittle more studying and research before we continue with anymore of these unfounded claims. As God declares, we are to read and learn His Word, to show ourselves approved in rightly dividing Truth.
First of all, those here seek truth. Truth is reading scripture in context and not picking a part of it that suits one's view point. Matthew 7:1-5 1Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brothers eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, Let me remove the speck from your eye; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye." I heard someone at church use this verse the other week and they too stopped with 2. As for being "called", this refers to salvation not into ministery. The ministery is Jesus' and no one elses. Jesus had a few words for religious leaders in Matthew 23. Study the epistles and what the role of pastors, evangelists and teachers were, you may find it is not what you think. If pastors were a called place of authority in the church when the apostles were planting churches why were they not the one's to whom the apostles addressed their letters? No church had elders at it's inception. Only after a church had been established for some time did Paul or some other apostle acknowledge elders, but not as authority figures. Elders, pastors, evangelist and teachers were not places of authority in the church, but overseers, this means they were kind of like life guards at the local swimming hole. They were to watch for those who might be struggling in the gospel and help guide them back. When Paul does mention elders it is to tell the church to pay heed to them because they are older believers who have much more experience and wisdom, he does not tell them to obey these elders but be smart enough to know they know what they are talking about. Example: I have been in the facility maintenance field for almost 20 years. My speciality is HVAC. I can weld but not well, however my neighbor 2 doors down is 76 and been welding longer than I have been alive. Before I would attempt to weld something of great importance I would seek his advice and follow it since I know of his welding expertise. That is what Paul is telling the saints of the church to do concerning elders. Do I have to follow my neighbors advice? No, although I'd be foolish not too. Did the saints of the church have to follow the advice of the elders? No, but they would have been foolish not to have and Paul tells them this. I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, all believers are to study his Word. Some of my beliefs have had to change to His truth in place of what man taught me. Be open to learn his Word his way.
All good responces and all true. But at the same time, God still declares "vengence is mine sayeth the Lord". He is the one to judge Ministers.
God declares that we can judge the sin but not the sinner. Thus, we can speak out about the faults in someones doctrine and how its expressed or not, but not to speak down of the person.
God declares we are to test the spirit of such things if of God or not. But, He does not say to judge the person, but the root of the tree producing that fruit.
Have each of you made mistakes in your sharing with others or done something wrong thats not inline with what God teaches? Or am I in the presence of a perfected group here?
If your honest and you have, should we then reject you rather than seeking God to correct you for a better witness of Christ thru you?
Whatever religion TD Jakes follows, he has authority over him. Thus, his upper authorities can be notified of the discrepancies and leave it to them to deal with that. It is neither our authority or position to speak against him but only his, out of context to God's Word, operations etc.
God shows a proceedure to go thru for such things- seek to speak with that person yourself first. If fails, bring another and approach them about it. If still won't listen, approach them with the Church- (upper authority is how I take it).
As for calling someone a "sinner".Kind of dumb to ask that when God declares we are all sinners already. Those believe they don't sin-(or are not one), decieve themselves.
I beg to differ about the A/G Church, as we had a licensed A/G trained Minister heading our old Home Church who knew thier doctrines well and was the one who told me of that belief, which is why I questioned him on it concerning women Pastors in some of thier Churches. My old Pastor said I had to ask the headquarters located in Missouri about it.
Its amazing how people use some Scriptures as an excuse to judge people, when God speaks so strongly against it. Judge not lest ye be judged. Judge not another, that your Father in Heaven shall not judge you the same.
God speaks of men being at 3 different levels- natural- unsaved, lost to God and following the world- (devil). Carnal- A true Child of God who is still dealing with the ol nature of which they work against worldly temptations. Spiritual- A person who has fully filled by the Holy Spirit, no worldly attractios or temptations or trials effect them at all and they live a perfectly clean life for God.
I've only met the first two types of people, - natural and carnal, but have not yet met or heard of a "Spiritual man" of God having ever having walked or now walking this earth, except Jesus, who was God in the flesh.
Now, as far as I'm concerned, any of you can judge people all you want while alive on earth here. But I pray for your moment in front of God on the day of judgement that He will love you more than judging you as harshly or strictly as you seem to of other sinners here, even if are sheperds over us.
Commando You need to go back and read some of the replies to things you have already posted THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD NOWHERE TEACHES THAT WOMEN ARE NOT TO PREACH OR TEACH. And if you know an A/G church that does I will GUARANTEE IT IS NOT PART OF THE LARGER MOVEMENT! I have known personally women pastors and teachers within the movement and I have been part of the movement off and on through the years and I KNOW WHAT THEIR POLITY IS! "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female" and that is exactly what the A/G has ALWAYS taught. In fact, one of the first preachers IN THE MOVEMENT was a woman! Either brush up on your facts or don't state things you "think" are true. Beyond that, just because someone says they have been "called by" or "annointed by" or "ordained by" God doesn't mean it is so. Jesus clearly said "by whatsoever measure you judge, you shall be judged." In other words ... don't call someone else a sinner for doing exactly what you're doing. In other places, the Word says, "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM." That means that you have the right to watch the fruits of a ministry and judge the ministry by that fruit ... and T.D. Jakes, Marilyn Hickey, Kenneth Copeland and many other so-called "word of faith" teachers' ministries have far more broken lives, ruined people on fixed income and disillusioned ex-followers than any true minister of the Gospel should have.
-- Edited by wordworker at 16:34, 2007-10-31
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"I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to His holy people." Jude 3 Joyce
.... its wrong to lift up Ministers to a higher level above the rest of them. They are not. Why? God declares all His Children (all), are kings and preists under Christ.
God speaks in His Word how we are to show reverance to them, because He has appointed them and set them so.
These 2 statements are a bit confusing when used together from the same person. You say it is wrong to lift up Ministers to a higher level above th rest then go on to say that we are to show reverance to them because He hasappointed them and set them so. Which is it>?
I beleive any man who is "Called" by God to preach His Gospel has accepted a calling that is certainly on a different and HIGHER level than any other occupation one can undertake. Being "Called" by God to do something in itself makes that position more responsible and even the Word says that it is a position of more accountability. The key to all that is just how many are actually "Called" and how many are preaching because daddy did it, or it's a decent living or thought to be anyway, or thats what my folks wanted me to do or whaever else excuse one can find to call it a "Called" position. My uncle who is also a Minister (Baptist) once toured a Bible College and ask quite a few students why they were in Bible College, what brought them to be there and the majority told him that is was a way to make a good living without having to work real hard physically and the retirement was good. Sad and Scarey isn't it. This was about 25 years ago and I do believe we are seeing the results of those past students now.
By pretending that the Minister is nothing more than anyone else in regards to accountability is not true as far I am concerned anyway.
I think what we are seeing is that far too many people are trying to convince themselves that because are human, we can do almost anything and excuse it off. God will forgive because after all, God is love. BUT, God also has a set of rules that we must go by. We are to conduct ourselves in such a manner as not to cause a stumbling block to others. We are not to be deceiving. We are not to be lovers of flesh nor lovers of manna (money). In these times of "can't we just all get along" mentality, we are falling for a mighty deception of Satan. IF it was supposed to be a utopia society of all getting along and do not test the spirit of teachings, etc., then there would be no end time to worry about. BUT we all know through Scripture that the times will be rough before the Lord comes again. Think about it.....
-- Edited by bobw at 16:09, 2007-10-31
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
Going by your example CC that means according to the leader of Iran, "the horses mouth", there was no holocost as he has clearly stated. But we all know different. We as believers can stand up and defend the prosperity game all we want, usually it is from our own deep seeded desire to gain wealth, greed, that we do so. God's Word clearly states Matthew 6:19,20 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. I believe scripture allowing us permission to pray in the name of Jesus to obtain our desires, or for God to give us whatever we ask in that name could be tests. Could God have placed this in his Word intending for our desires and hunger for blessings to be for Him? In a spiritual sense? Or to seek after earthly blessing and gain to weed true believers from pretenders? Jesus taught Matthew 7:14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." I choose to ask my Lord for his nature with in me. Jesus asked God to take the cup of his wrath from him but yeilded to his Fathers will. Jesus had restraint when he could have called many angels to rescue him. Jesus suffered and did not speak against those who beat and crucified him. Jesus may have given me permission to use his name for blessing and gain, but I choose restraint. I will take no chance on being one of the many. Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
Yes, granted, some will not be preaching identical to thier statements. But, don't forget, God's Word was given by God to man as a collection of ways for living a particular type of life.
Religions, are man made and are falable because they are not of God. But, God still works thru man's religions, just as He worked with His "First Chosen" consistantly, even with all thier faults.
And I've known Ministers over the years that drink alcohol, smoke, comitt other sins. What we sometimes forget is, Ministers are human just like us. Apostle Paul spoke of his working to keep his body under subjection, thus, he was fighting against temptations. Also, he declared that he glories in his infirmaties- (weaknesses), that God has more room to work thru him as an example.
Yes, Ministers are to be an example to thier flocks. But, lets not put them on a pedestal above us, forgetting they have weaknesses just like you and I do. And I'm a Minister myself and I smoke.
I'd rather the rest of the "Body of Christ" knew right out, I'm human and falable too, just like them and that its wrong to lift up Ministers to a higher level above the rest of them. They are not. Why? God declares all His Children (all), are kings and preists under Christ.
This is why God speaks so strongly against us judging each other. But to be loving, compassionate and accepting of others, with thier faults. For no one, not one, is worthy, but all are equally born in sin.
Question to you- Now, the Assemblies of God states in thier statement of beliefs a woman is not to preach or to teach. Yet, I know of several female Ministers they have running some of thier Churches.
So, are they now a spirious questionable Christian religion or thier Minister's? Not to be followed? Or how bout the sect of Baptist religion that seriously questions, to out right believes people are not saved and reborn if not "full body emersed" water baptised, if baptised at all?
As a researcher of God's Word and related subjects for most of my 27 years as a Minister, I can cite each Christian religion having some out of context teachings of God's Word. So, should we throw all of them and thier Minister's out because of that?
I suggest not. God still works thu all of them and those Ministers. Yes, we are "all" falable, thus we will "all" make mistakes, do things wrong, not be following God exactly correct.
But, I thank God in Heaven, He has accepted us by "Grace"- (unmerited favor), not by works, lest any man should boast. Because people are boastful and judgemental enough as it is to claim others are so bad.
Yes, the Apostle Paul and other ones showed correction as needed with the Churches they started and continually taught and raised up. But, there was no condemnation, only loving correction applied. Re iterating them of what they were taught, not saying they were bad and unacceptable.
I understand your position, but think it best to send people to the main site of a questionable Ministry to see the statement of beliefs and to listen to or read thier teachings.
God and Christ both spoke for the "Body" to be in unity. Where is that, when so many of us sit back and pick others apart for thier sins, discrepancies, falable points? Do they not realize someone who knows them could turn and pick them apart as well?
Its one thing to lovingly point out discrepancies for others to avoid accepting them for any religion. But, its another, to condemn a member of the "Body" or a Ministry.
God speaks in His Word how we are to show reverance to them, because He has appointed them and set them so.
There is no religion, nor any Minister licensed to that religion that teaches the "Whole Truths" of God. They all have thier discrepancies. Thats ok. They are human like us. Look at Moses wanting to be out from under leading the people, David who murdered and lied, Lot who got drunk, Peter, Paul, Thomas, plus alot more.
Lets not be condemning but lovingly guiding and pointing out discrepancies, while being accepting of those God appointed and set as such Himself.
The reason we tell people to go to some sites is that a lot of Ministries list their statement of beliefs and they will be right in line with Scripture BUT they then go about teaching and preaching contrary to what they say is their beliefs. It always makes things look good to have a written statement of beliefs that line up with the Word of God but one must then teach, preach and live that same belief system.
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A preacher in those days, when he felt God called him to preach, didn't hunt up a college or seminary, he hunted up a good horse, took off across the country and began crying "Behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world"!
Well, instead of going to "Carm" to seek answers about TD Jakes, I suggest going to his website directly and reading his statement of beliefs. That will show his actual statement of beliefs about God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Better to get info directly from the "horses' mouth" as it were, than taking second hand beliefs.
I dont understand what forgotten word ministries has against TD Jakes. They say it's about his explanation of the Trinity. If his explanation is not right, what is the correct explanation?
